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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

idealista.com

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#481
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, financial damage is real and can have long term consequences that outlive short term inconvenience. You are probably right in the majority of cases,but I do think it is a mistake to automatically discount financial harm as less. If I invest 20 years of my income in a property that someone has stolen, that is a significant loss to me in human terms as well as financially. I would be open to treating the destr…

>If I invest 20 years of my income in a property that someone has stolen, that is a significant loss to me in human terms as well as financially. You've also paid for your primary residence. But on top of that, you need it to live in. So it's a worse situation, generally speaking.

That was a general comment, true for both cases.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even having to pay rent to another I'm curious how would you expect housing to stock to grow or even stay stable if nobody had to pay rent? Would all housing be used owned by the state and assigned to individuals based on certain criteria (with huge amounts of inefficiency and corruption that such a system creates)?

It could grow either by people making their own houses on their own, or by them finding others who would help with this process, or by paying someone for the labor required for the house to get build. I think that private property should not get nationalized.

Right, so basically you want the system we currently have?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare…

> you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments You would be surprised about the sheer number of spaniards that would welcome this second-order effect. In the last ~10 years, renting has skyrocketed, due to the discovery of the spanish renting market by international money, and renting laws relaxation (demand side). Meanwhile, this has not increased the supply of homes, as i…

If the problem is outside investment in the housing market is causing issues, why not just just address the issue?

Pass a law either limiting or banning outside real estate speculation.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is dividing the victims along arbitrary class lines and arguing that most victims are not “middle class” supposed to make it better? That was in reply to the parent comment, arguing this is a serious problem primarily for the "not-so-rich middle class" that is being ignored because we falsely imagine it's mainly a problem for banks and rich people. In fact, the data suggests this really is primarily a problem for c…

Neither huge amount of somewhat legit cases of 'unused', nor media coverage doesn't make it right. I also wouldn't easily compare the murder count (which are hardly underreported) and occupation count (which most likely are, because legal way is way more expensive and lengthy).

> I also wouldn't easily compare the murder count (which are hardly underreported) and occupation count (which most likely are, because legal way is way more expensive and lengthy).

The legal process is definitely lengthy for actual occupation (usurpación) where the average eviction time is now but for people breaking & entering into your personal residence (allanamiento) it's not at all. If you can demonstrate this (easy enough: show you're the owner & empadronado, ask the neighbours to vouch for you, or show the utility bills all have your name on them) then it's clear allanamiento and that means there's no judicial order or further investigation required and the police can (and do) forcibly remove & arrest people _immediately_. It's a very nice clear-cut crime.

Basically the strong legal protections for personal dwellings cut both ways: they protect okupas who make somebody's empty property their legal residence, but they'll also strongly protect you & your own home if it's your legal residence.

There's more detailed background from an actual law firm on that here: https://vecindia.es/desalojo-okupas/cuanto-tardan-en-desaloj...

Given all that, I'd be quite surprised if allanamiento is underreported at all.

> Neither huge amount of somewhat legit cases of 'unused', nor media coverage doesn't make it right.

I'm not saying it's right, or that the problem doesn't exist. There are a small number of real cases of individual's homes being invaded. Even in other cases, property ownership does need to function reliably for commercial properties, and although owning empty properties may be problematic this is not a very good solution to that at all. I would be very happy to see usurpación cases resolved much quicker, and to increase property taxes on empty properties to reduce speculation instead.

That said, I do think that:

* The media hype about it is overblown, and for most people who worry about it (and some people worry about this a lot!) it's really not a serious risk.

* Political discussion & action related to it is frequently overblown for political advantage, and that's why some people think losing your home and being unable to recover it is far more common than it is.

* The victims here are generally large business and property speculators. The law should definitely protect those groups too, yes, but the strictness & speed of legal & police procedures should be proportional to the damage to the victims, and an empty shop being used by okupas is clearly less problematic than having somebody take over your actual home.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not. Living where you want, for free, is not a right.

Yes, It is in Spain: Article 47 of Spanish Constitution: All Spaniards are entitled to enjoy decent and adequate housing. The public authorities shall promote the necessary conditions and shall establish appropriate standards in order to make this right effective, regulating land use in accordance with the general interest in order to prevent speculation.

No, it's not.

It does not mean you have the right to live in a flat en La Castellana for whatever you want pay. It means the State has to implement policies to help people access housing.

Also, article 33 give citizens the right to private property. You cannot come squat in my house because article 33 should prevent it, even when article 47 exists.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Refusing to pay for a place to live is simply theft and entitlement. They expect people to build and maintain homes for them while doing nothing in return. If you abolish property rights, your two options are state slavery or anarchy where the strong take whatever they can. These misguided ideologies can only live parasitic ally on the fringe of a otherwise functional society. If they got their way, the society would…

For most of our history humans did not have to pay for a piece of land to put up some yurt or hut and live there. How is the current system not strong taking whatever they can? Private property is just a legitimized theft, because it leaves some people without access to land or natural resources that is required for survival. It's not true that without private property you get state slavery or a strongman situation,…

For most of human history, people fought over the right for members of their group to put up a hut or yurt on a piece of land. And/Or some other, more powerful group would come and take whatever they wanted, including sex and slaves, from other, weaker groups of humans.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you define that "middle-class", please? If you live purely from housing, you are not middle-class.

In the Mediterranean like in any resort area a lot of people live from housing, which requires not only owning, but also keeping it attractive, complying with local regulations, looks and the culture. It's nothing like rental company in NYC owning a garage full of rats, and charging a arm and a leg. Middle class is a family from Zaragoza having a vacation house in Maresme or some extra property in Alicante which were…

Not arguing that owning property in a tourist area requires work (unless you're paying a property manager to do it for you), but I could never imagine owning a vacation property to be squarely middle class. Upper-middle class, at the very least.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare…

> you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments You would be surprised about the sheer number of spaniards that would welcome this second-order effect. In the last ~10 years, renting has skyrocketed, due to the discovery of the spanish renting market by international money, and renting laws relaxation (demand side). Meanwhile, this has not increased the supply of homes, as i…

Even worse, now the digital nomad phenomenon is increasing rents - ~19% of the demand in the rent market in Madrid in 2023 is from foreigners. As a result, the locals learned the phrase 'digital nomad' and they are now fighting back.

https://madridnofrills.com/gentrification/

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homelessness is a problem, even having to pay rent to another person to have a place to live is a problem. Squatting is just a strategy to fight an inherently oppressive private property norm.

I would like to know what the limits of your application of this idea is because if I were to extend your argument that "even having to pay rent to another person to have a place to live is a problem.", this is what I get to: I am currently buying a house, every month I pay money to the bank, this is very similar to having to pay rent. From my understanding of your logic, this would be a problem. Further from that, I…

I don't think I have a problem per se with the notion of borrowing money, if that's what you are asking about.

I personally don't have an issue with you finding people who help you with building the house that agree to do that for some payment.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no one can pack the apartment and leave the country. At worst they are left unoccupied, but that's a lot of money to have it parked, and can be discouraged with taxes; so alternatively people sell them... so buy and rent eventually go down.

And what will the buyers do with the apartments? Rent them? Well, then they'll either have to spend money on security or price the risk of okupas into the rent. In either case rent goes up. This is as nonsensical as the proposals in San Francisco to prohibit the construction of apartments to try and reduce rent. Dissuading people from renting out apartments reduces the supply apartments. There is zero possibility thi…

> And what will the buyers do with the apartments? Rent them?

Yes.

> This is as nonsensical as the proposals

Its not nonsensical. Its what is happening. Use it or lose it. Works. Find a good tenant, rent it for decades - like how it is supposed to be.

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