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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

idealista.com

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#261
post #221

Can we establish that the squatters are doing this out of economic necessity and not to "profit" (e.g can't afford to rent or own someplace else)? I imagine so as living with no security in an abandoned building with no utilities seems pretty desperate, sub-optimal and sad. If we can then realistically the root cause to this is lack of housing supply. "Just build more f**ing houses" would fix this no?

> an we establish that the squatters are doing this out of economic necessity and not to "profit"

in some cases yes

but in some cases it's also clearly not the case

and there are likely many ideologically driven cases too

> with no security in an abandoned building with no utilities seems pretty desperate, sub-optimal and sad.

you would think so but I have seen enough cases of people willingly abandon such things in context of ideologically driven life styles (not in Spain, but anyway)

> realistically the root cause to this is lack of housing supply. "Just build more f*ing houses" would fix this no?

no if anything the root cause is the lack of affordable housing, and that is much harder to fix as building housing is expensive so providing affordable housing is much harder then just increasing housing

worse the problem also often isn't affordable housing in general, but affordable housing in the right place e.g. where you can reach your workplace with public transportation or even just something as simple as housing where you can reach a supermarket with the means available to you

and a problem for that is affordable land to build on houses, which is sparse due to two reasons 1. most land is already in use 2. a lot of shitty money economy leading to stuff like land banks and similar, basically a small number of very wealthy entities (not necessary people) have bought a lot of the land and housing (directly or through proxy) and have absolutely no reason or insensitive to provide reasonable affordable housing. In some cases they don't even have the insensitive to use the land housing at all, i.e. they would prefer to not rent the apartments they own and just keep them around as monetary investment.

In general this isn't a Spanish problem it's a problem in most (all?) countries which have a banking/investment/money market roughly similar to the US when it comes to property. Sure each country has their own country specific problems on top of it (e.g. zoning laws in the US) but the problem by itself is much more deep rooted. And if you want to starkly oversimplify it the problem points back to a few siphoning of the wealth of the many in increasingly sophisticated ways. As long as the many generate enough new wealth this can work (like during economic boom times) but that hasn't been the case for a long time with especially "small family cooperation becoming increasingly economically impossible" playing a big role. At the same time we where for a long time able through technologically advancement (or producing in china) to still keep a high living standard and most of the basic needs for many people covered. So the consequences where limited. But that doesn't help with apartments especially given of property ownership has become a really nice and desired way to keep money somewhat save during turbulent times which combined with speculative investment in housing has driving prices up beyond what would normally have happened in many regions in the world.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#262
post #33

This is pure madness. So you have 48 hours after squatting started to report it and potentially get a fast eviction (why is it not an automatic criminal case for breaking into the property is beyond me). But after 48 hours it seems like it becomes a nightmare. So if you are on a business trip for 3 days or visiting parents in a different city or vacationing for a few days and somebody enters your home, you are out of…

No, not for your primary residence. You can report that anytime and they will act immediately.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#263
post #223
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In germany, if you see such a abandoned property, you cannot even ask the authority who owns it, if you have the plans to buy it (you would have to rely on local people knowing and telling you). There are quite some neglected properties around here and the owners are away, do not care anymore and the authorities do not care as long as the low property taxes are paid. There was a case close by, where a buisness wanted…

don't you also have the "Grundbuch" (title register) in Germany, like we do here in Austria? -- snip -- okay, I looked it up. you have, but it's not fully public like ours. Yeez that's messed up!

"Yeez that's messed up!"

Yes it is. You can request information, but I was told "wanting to buy" is explicitely excluded as a valid reason. (The usual solution is knowing someone inside the office, or paying someone who knows)

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#264
I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Everybody knows the problem exists, most people take extra, otherwise not necessary measures against it. The leftist govt adds to the problem somehow rationalizing it and trying to channel poor's frustration onto middle-class, while the actual abusers, who are well aware of the problem, stay safe.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#265

> if a property is not adequately secured and is left unattended, it becomes vulnerable to occupation. > Spanish law provides for an immediate eviction procedure that can be enacted within 48 hours of illegal occupation So if I understand properly, if you go away for the weekend and forget to close a window, you might find squatters in your house when you come back, and you can't quickly get them out in a legal way?

This is not true. Your first and second house are protected by the law. If someone enters in your first or second house when you are outside, they will get expelled in the same moment the police arrives, and they will face criminal consecuences. The problem comes when you have 200 houses and somebody squats one of those where you don't live and you don't use. A problem for the banks, vulture funds and big renters. An…

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. But does the law define a difference between, say, your second home or your 100th?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#266
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like this yes. But the devil will be in the details. "pay 1% of the buildings value as property tax each year" A old rotten building might be worth just 10000€. And 100 € a year ain't that much. One would have to tax the property - and who will set up the rates in a fair way in a process that is not vulnerable to corruption?

And old rotten building sitting anywhere in a city is worth way more than 10.000€. Even if the building is not in good shape, the land is still valuable.

"Even if the building is not in good shape, the land is still valuable."

That was my point, not binding the value just to the building itself.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really that won't help. These kind of regulations have been tried in so many countries before and the result is always the same: cap the rents => landlords will take houses from the markets and sell them instead => there will be a shortage of properties for rent so finding them will be very hard, and the few landlords left will be extremely selective when choosing from the many candidates. What does help: increase th…

Increasing supply won't work with places where the demand is virtually infinite. You have to cut the demand somehow, and in the case of Spain it means preventing foreigners to access such stock. That means public housing, or some law that creates a lot of friction. Cheaper housing in Spain will lead to induced demand, because there's just too many people willing to move here.

Yes you're right, reducing demand will also work. Which is exactly what capping rents won't do, this will actually increase demand ..

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#268
post #84

Squatters cannot break into your home and take residence. They can only enter if you leave a window or door open for them to enter. If they break-in that is a criminal offence and the police will treat it as a buglary and arrest those in the property. I used to squat here on Airstrip One in my twenties when I was homeless. We did not squat in homes where people lived, We squatted in empty properties. The utilities co…

[flagged]

I'd see something wrong if you bought up all the food in the supermarket and then let it rot in your backyard.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And old rotten building sitting anywhere in a city is worth way more than 10.000€. Even if the building is not in good shape, the land is still valuable.

Right, and then the 80yo people living in a centenary house in a gentrified neighborhood suddenly get a 10x tax increase because the next door building got sold to be remodeled as a luxury condo, and drove property values through the roof. That's good, because if they can't pay, their house is up for remodelling too. /sarcasm

If the 80yo people are living in the house, then it isn't vacant.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is actually simpler, set a property tax that would hurt if the buildings became vacant. For example if you pay 1% of the buildings value as property tax each year, it would make enough incentive to rent it out or sell if you don't need it. The proceeds can be used for building public housing projects or helping the homeless. Property tax was invented for this very reason.

Having a building vacant is already incredibly expensive; costs and interest add up and the building can get severely damaged (a building has to be heated in winter, ventilated properly and issues like broken pipes have to be found quickly by tenants etc.). Common reasons for vacancies are probate disputes, owners that are house rich but cash poor and can't handle maintenance, issues with building code and permits an…

In countries with high inflation purchasing real-estate and keeping it vacant is an inflation hedge. Plus, you also benefit from low interest rates and get free money if your government allows it.

I live in Turkey. We had 80% p.a. inflation, where the government decided to lower the interest rates even further. Our president said Interest rates are the cause of inflation and if we lowered interest rates inflation would go down. State banks gave out house loans with 12% p.a. interest where the inflation rate was above 80% p.a.

A lot of Turkish people got their free money from the bank and invested in real estate. In Turkey, everyone evades tax and property taxes are not really collected. This in turn fueled inflation even more, sky-rocketed inequality and caused the worst housing crisis.

That is why I am convinced that property taxes are a must.

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