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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#251

Post by account42 »

unaindz wrote: post #185
pzo wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its probsbly hard to reliably enforce it since hard to figure out if bulding is occupied or not. You can have someone registered at the residency but still not live there. You could maybe try to figure out based on water usage but then someone could just leave water tap slightly leaking since water cost is not that expensive Probsbly squatters are those cheap solution that can enforce it in the most efficient way

You don't need to know if people live there, just raise tax enough so that the owner feels like renting or selling the building is better than paying the taxes out of pocket.

This also forcess poorer people (including retired people) to sell off the house they are actually living in. This is especially true if the tax is based on the current estimated value which may be much higher than what the house was bought for.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#252

Post by matt-p »

xzjis wrote: post #239
matt-p wrote: post #221

Can we establish that the squatters are doing this out of economic necessity and not to "profit" (e.g can't afford to rent or own someplace else)? I imagine so as living with no security in an abandoned building with no utilities seems pretty desperate, sub-optimal and sad. If we can then realistically the root cause to this is lack of housing supply. "Just build more f**ing houses" would fix this no?

Yes, but housing market is a market, so for owners to have a ROI on their houses, the supply needs to be lower than the demand. Usually the way governments "patch" this is by building social houses and apartments, but if you were building enough of them then people would rent or buy them instead of the other private ones. So, again, it would make home owners unhappy to not have their investment go up. I don't know if…

Same in the UK. I think we can choose any number of options to maintain this;

We keep building houses until house prices are stagnant and do not grow any more. Honestly even if houses lost ~1% of their value almost no-body would be underwater on their mortgage.

a bunch of specific areas to "build 100K homes" and have the government garentee to buy anyones house in that area at any time in the the next 25 years for the value of it on the scheme announcement date. Existing home owners dont lose.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#253

Post by quectophoton »

dukeyukey wrote: post #206
quectophoton wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: I don't own a house, and I'm not even earning minimum wage with my freelance work.) Question. If I owned a house, and went on a long vacation outside the country (e.g. because maybe I like travelling or something), how long would I be able to stay on vacation before the government yoinked my house due to it being empty?

Even if you're not in it, the house is full of your possessions. I'm not seeing how this is comparable to properties that have been actually empty for decades.

If a property is fully decorated (photos of my family, toothbrush I've used, etc), is that still considered empty?

If the answer is "yes", then based on your post, the answer to my question of how long can I take a vacation for, is "decades".

But if that is indeed considered empty, then what if in addition to that, every month I email someone my travel expenses and tell them to print them and to put them in some drawer in that property (maybe locked with a key or something), and also mail some cheap souvenirs and tell them to put them as decoration somewhere, is that still considered empty? (Since it has my stuff, and is continuously storing more stuff I'm purchasing.)

If that is allowed, then the next question is what if my vacation is in the same country.

So yeah, what kind of activity, and with what frequency, does that property have to have in order for it to not be considered empty, without leaving some kind of loophole?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#254

Post by account42 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #168
spaniard89277 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This problem will only grow because there's an increasingly large number of people in Spain unable to rent. At this very moment the profile of squatters is diverse, but with such large pockets of spaniards staying just above of the poverty line, many people will be forced between squatting or just become homeless. Just for reference, I live in a flat in a building from the 50s. Very poor insulation, 5º with no elevat…

You are in IT earning only 20K EUR per year? That is unbelievable! Why is the housing crisis happening? What changed? Did you have a population boom? > Not to mention all the "expats" and "digital nomads" that are willing to pay whatever the landlord says because they really really want to live here without thinking about the consequences, but that's another story. Hmmm. Do you have any stats on this matter? It seems…

> Did you have a population boom?

Unchecked (or even encouraged) mass migration, yes.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#255

Post by matt-p »

geiser wrote: post #242
matt-p wrote: post #221

Can we establish that the squatters are doing this out of economic necessity and not to "profit" (e.g can't afford to rent or own someplace else)? I imagine so as living with no security in an abandoned building with no utilities seems pretty desperate, sub-optimal and sad. If we can then realistically the root cause to this is lack of housing supply. "Just build more f**ing houses" would fix this no?

Spanish here. I've been to many homes occupied by squatters due to the nature of my voluntary service for quite some years. The people you seem to be describing just applies for a tiny proportion of the actual landscape of squatting in Spain. So your sentence is partly true, but nowadays as the situation becomes chronic, most people just do it because it is convenient for them Believe me when I say that I've been tas…

So what's the solution, just make squatting illegal again?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#256

Post by account42 »

misja111 wrote: post #158
diggan wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can anyone tell me how is exactly this going to work out? Not to mention all the "expats" and "digital nomads" that are willing to pay whatever the landlord says because they really really want to live here without thinking about the consequences, but that's another story. Slowly, more regulation is added to get the problem somewhat under control. Rents capped by index, annual rent increases cap, introduction of "t…

Really that won't help. These kind of regulations have been tried in so many countries before and the result is always the same: cap the rents => landlords will take houses from the markets and sell them instead => there will be a shortage of properties for rent so finding them will be very hard, and the few landlords left will be extremely selective when choosing from the many candidates. What does help: increase th…

> Really that won't help. These kind of regulations have been tried in so many countries before and the result is always the same: cap the rents => landlords will take houses from the markets and sell them instead

Good. Too many people are forced into renting due to insane property prices as is.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#257

Post by otherme123 »

hnbad wrote: post #241
otherme123 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I think okupas are a very small problem, mainly used for propaganda. But how are real state companies feeding the problem? The problem is that there's no houses available, because politicians create artificial scarcity. In any local government, the stronger department is "Urbanism", decides if you get rich by allowing you to develop on your property, or you stay poor because you don't get the permits. Come on,…

> There is also the problem with the insecurity for the landlord in Spain: right now, is you rent to a family with kids, and the family doesn't pay, you can't do nothing! How is it a mistery that landlords are retiring their properties from the rent market to sell them? That's causing a massive shortage, that causes prices do go up. There's an easy way to fix that: create a tax for unoccupied housing. If real estate…

>landlords only exist because most people can't afford or aren't eligible for the kind of loan that would allow them to build or buy a house

I rent. Not because I can't afford to buy, but because I'm not convinced that I will stay where I am forever. Maybe in a few years I move to Tarifa to work remotely, maybe I move to China. Today I live in a flat, I don't know it I want to live in this flat forever or buy a house. Today I have good health, maybe tomorrow I don't so I need to change my housing requirements.

I need landlords to invest their money in houses I can rent. The same I need people buying planes so I don't have to buy one to fly. What is adding value for you? To me a landlord that made the investment so I can rent has value enough that I pay for it. If you don't like it, it's fine, but leave the rest of us live and rent in peace.

If being a landlord was so profitable and risk free, we would be drowning in properties for rent. The fact that it doesn't happen, but we have a massive house shortage speaks by itself.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#258

Post by ricardobayes »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #70
ssijak wrote: post #33

This is pure madness. So you have 48 hours after squatting started to report it and potentially get a fast eviction (why is it not an automatic criminal case for breaking into the property is beyond me). But after 48 hours it seems like it becomes a nightmare. So if you are on a business trip for 3 days or visiting parents in a different city or vacationing for a few days and somebody enters your home, you are out of…

This problem will only grow because there's an increasingly large number of people in Spain unable to rent. At this very moment the profile of squatters is diverse, but with such large pockets of spaniards staying just above of the poverty line, many people will be forced between squatting or just become homeless. Just for reference, I live in a flat in a building from the 50s. Very poor insulation, 5º with no elevat…

These sound like numbers from Seville or somewhere deep South. Just for reference I mention that in Munich you could also rent something for 475€ and your salary would probably triple overnight. https://www.immobilienscout24.de/Suche/radius/wohnung-mieten...

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#259

Post by juststartguide »

dukeyukey wrote: post #209
juststartguide wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A common misconception that people don't seem to get (and that most news outlets conveniently forget to report), it's that if someone enters your primary or even second residence, that isn't considered Okupacion, it's considered "Allanamiento de morada" (breaking and entering). Even if you were on vacation for a month. If that happens you call the police and they'll kick them out in 24 hours max.

And that applies to a rental property that is the renters only home but the landlords 200th property?

Yes it does. It would be the renters primary residence, so it's "Allanamiento de Morada". (Breaking and entering).

Now if the current renter can't afford to keep paying rent and decides to occupy the property, that's considered Okupación. And that process does take longer.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#260

Post by ricardobayes »

spaniard89277 wrote: post #78
diggan wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can anyone tell me how is exactly this going to work out? Not to mention all the "expats" and "digital nomads" that are willing to pay whatever the landlord says because they really really want to live here without thinking about the consequences, but that's another story. Slowly, more regulation is added to get the problem somewhat under control. Rents capped by index, annual rent increases cap, introduction of "t…

I don't think that helps honestly. What would help IMO is a lot of new housing close to jobs where foreigners can't apply. Because no matter how much you build, if someone from overseas is going to say "I pay double of whatever you've been offered" I can't compete. And I know that's happening because my Gf has to work with this sort of people, sadly.

Technically we have that, it's called VPO.
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