Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s also part of, good designs don’t depend on high precision components. I think TAoE emphasized that. For high precision one can use trim potentiometers or maybe even digital potentiometer with an ADC at the other side to measure and get as close as possible, but otherwise depending on resistors for high precision is kinda rough (I’m think like an RC circuit that need a very specific resistance to meet some spe…
High precision resistors are often necessary for metrology applications like very precise and low drift voltage sources. Often parts like Vishay's same-substrate thin film resistor networks [0] are used, as the temperature of each resistor leg are kept the closely relative to each other, resulting in the ratio between them being stable against temperature changes. Even if you use some adjustable/tunable circuit, you…
Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
161–168 of 168 posts
Re: Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. Is there a reason why they don't just use digital audio everywhere and convert to analog as late as possible? Inside the speakers for example? I mean, digital audio is pretty much perfect. Why are analog audio signals still a thing? People actually pay tho…
> digital audio is pretty much perfect. It can be. But standard Bluetooth connections for audio can be terrible. Streaming from the internet, that is digital, and there can be delays and gaps in the sound.
Re: Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For some reason audiophiles will use darn massive gold (or silver) RCA connectors instead of something like a balanced connection that would actually make sense. Is there a reason why they don't just use digital audio everywhere and convert to analog as late as possible? Inside the speakers for example? I mean, digital audio is pretty much perfect. Why are analog audio signals still a thing? People actually pay tho…
> digital audio is pretty much perfect. It can be. But standard Bluetooth connections for audio can be terrible. Streaming from the internet, that is digital, and there can be delays and gaps in the sound.
I didn't mean to indirectly praise Bluetooth in my post. Bluetooth anything pretty much sucks. Bluetooth audio in particular is pretty bad and full of usability issues. It doesn't seem to have the bandwidth required since the audio gets transcoded to some lossy format.
I once set up an mpd music server on my local network and audio quality was perfect. However I encountered significant latency issues. Play and pause had a latency of one second which made it unusable. That was true even for uncompressed audio streams over the network.
I got bored before I was able to resolve the problem. Maybe the problem was my network. I should try it again now that I have a much higher performance router running OpenWRT which is capable of traffic shaping.
Re: Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Even a 80 Euro Berhinger USB audio interface has balanced outs nowadays. Yeah but who outside of people already interested in DJing buys that kind of stuff. It just looks ugly, unlike your classic home theater setup. Out of "looks decent (=passes the Spouse Acceptance Factor test)", "reasonably affordable" and "has decent quality", choose two... unless you got a partner accepting you literally putting up a 2m truss…
There's something to it that the equipment should look beautiful in your living room, Bang and Olofssen -style. Music is beautiful, equipment playing it should be too. Or at least it enhances the experience.
It is perfectly possible to build beautiful balanced equipment.
Re: Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even a 80 Euro Berhinger USB audio interface has balanced outs nowadays. I think this is more of a cultural divide than anything, with tradition being a big part of it. In the olden days balanced I/O had to be done using specialized transformers. Unless you got really expensive well wound ones these could degrade your signal significantly — that might've contributed to a bad rep in audiophile circles. But today you c…
> Even a 80 Euro Berhinger USB audio interface has balanced outs nowadays. Yeah but who outside of people already interested in DJing buys that kind of stuff. It just looks ugly, unlike your classic home theater setup. Out of "looks decent (=passes the Spouse Acceptance Factor test)", "reasonably affordable" and "has decent quality", choose two... unless you got a partner accepting you literally putting up a 2m truss…
Balanced outputs have nothing to do with the aesthetics of the object. And I choose option 4 — build it yourself — then it can be done cheap and look however decent, massive, invisible, ridiculous or whatever the aesthetical ven diagram between your second half and you looks like. And it can have balanced I/O if needed ; )
Re: Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
My speakers convert digital to analog. They have ethernet jacks in the back. Maybe you bought the wrong speakers? Stepping back for a moment… you see digital interconnects in high-end pro audio gear, using systems like Dante. These systems are NOT simple. When you have multiple digital audio systems connected together, you have to worry about whether they are all running from the same clock, or whether you can conver…
Right and isn't it the case that good quality D/A-converters still cost much money. So if you want every speaker to have them, and you want many speakers to get an immersive sound then "digital loudspeakers" can become expensive?
There are a lot of different parts involved—D/A converters, crossover networks, and amplifiers. Back in the day, good D/A converters were expensive, but they have gotten really cheap. If you have amplifiers that are cheap enough, you can put them after the crossover network and save money on the crossover network. If you have D/A converters that are cheap enough, you can eliminate the crossover network entirely and do it in DSP.
At that point you are comparing the cost of one more channel of D/A against the cost of an electronic crossover. It’s super easy to just buy a D/A with more channels. If you get to completely eliminate an analog crossover network, maybe that’s a win in terms of BOM cost.
Re: Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've repeatedly used a certain words in what I wrote, since it has incredible meaning in the manufacturing and engineering world, which is the context we're seeking within. It's a word that determines the feasibility of a design in mass production, and a metric for if an engineer is competent or not: determinism. That is the goal of a good design. > It only stays the same if you have the worst luck. And, you will get…
> If you make an intentional decision to rely on luck, you're intentionally deciding to burn some money by scrapping a certain percentage of your product. Which is why nobody makes that decision. Now this is complete nonsense. Lots of production processes do that. It depends on the cost of better tooling and components, and the cost of testing. And... the actual probabilities! You're right that you can't assume a nor…
Please remain within the context we're speaking in: final design not components. When manufacturing a component, like a resistor or chip, you do almost always have a normal distribution. You're making things with sand, metal, etc. Some bits of crystal will have defects, maybe you ended up with the 0.01% in your 99.99% purity source materials, etc. You test and bin those components so they fall within certain tolerances, so the customer sees a deterministic component. You control the distribution the customer sees as much as possible.
Someone selecting components for their design will use the tolerance of the component as the parameter of that design. You DO NOT intentionally choose a part with a tolerance wider than your design can accommodate. As I said, if you can't source a component within the tolerance you need, you force that tolerance through IQC, so that your final design is guaranteed to work, because it's always cheaper to test a component than to test something that you paid to assemble with bad parts. You design based on a tolerance, not a distribution.
> Determinism is a good goal but it's not an absolute goal and it's not mandatory.
As I said, choosing to not be deterministic, by choosing a tolerance your design can't accomodate is rare, because it's baking malfunction and waste into the design. That is sometimes done (as I said), but it's very rare, and absofuckinglutly never done with resistors tolerance selection.
> But your post gives off some pretty string implications that you need a 0% defect rate, and that's not realistic either.
> There's a point where decreasing defects costs more than filtering them.
No, defects are not intentional, by definition. There will always be defects. A tolerance is something that you can rely on, when choosing a component, because you are guaranteed to only get loss from actual defects, with the defects being bad components outside the tolerance. If you make a design that can't accommodate a tolerance that you intentionally choose, it is not a defect, it's part of the design.
0% defect has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying intentionally choosing tolerances that your design can't accommodate is very very rare, and almost always followed by IQC to bin the parts, to make sure the tolerance remains within the operating parameters of the design.
I feel like this has lead to circles. I suggest re-reading the thread.
Maybe you could give an example where you see this being intentionally done (besides Wish.com merchandise, where I would question if it's intentional).
Re: Why do electronic components have such odd values? (2021)
#168Wikipedia has a nice table of these values that I actually have printed out and hanging above my bench. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_series_of_preferred_numbers#... The fact of the matter is that nowadays, E96 series resistors are readily available and dirt cheap. And if you need more precision than that, you either don't know much about electronics or you know a whole lot about electronics, heh.
There’s also part of, good designs don’t depend on high precision components. I think TAoE emphasized that. For high precision one can use trim potentiometers or maybe even digital potentiometer with an ADC at the other side to measure and get as close as possible, but otherwise depending on resistors for high precision is kinda rough (I’m think like an RC circuit that need a very specific resistance to meet some spe…
Also, component-level precision has limits because eventually trace impedance starts to be significant (hence the use of trim components you mentioned!).
Youtuber Marco Reps goes through various high precision equipment that often have precision resistors and such, recommended if interested!