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U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

nytimes.com

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Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#31

Post by iforgotpassword »

roenxi wrote: post #26
vlovich123 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with monopoly laws is it doesn’t matter how you got into pole position. The point is that you’re illegally utilizing tangential benefits of the pole position to maintain that position as well as enter new markets. > including how the company’s software locks customers into using its chips, as well as how Nvidia distributes those chips to customers. The lock-in is probably a losing argument on technical meri…

Just on that last paragraph, because the frame annoys me - that is bullying. It isn't fair to insinuate that a company did something wrong by attempting to obey the law. MS knows all about antitrust. They've hired a bunch of lawyers and told them to do what needs to be done to be compliant with the regulations. That shouldn't then be implied as evidence that they are guilty of antitrust activities! What are the lawye…

Because laws are always flawless and never contain any loopholes, and it has never happened ever that lawyers were specifically instructed by a company to find those loopholes and exploit them as hard as possible.

Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#32

Post by ineedaj0b »

initially tech was an apolitical asleep bear. the bear is waking up and both sides are not happy there is a bear in the room.

the bear needs to pick a side or even better... be a bear. be competent. bears are strong and can command a room themselves.

you have to accept responsibility you're a bear now.

Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#33

Post by jonathankoren »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #27
shmerl wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it's used as a tool that makes it impossible or very costly to switch from what such tool is tied to. To give an example. If CUDA wouldn't have been tied to Nvidia hardware, developers could use CUDA on any competing hardware. Being tied limits the choice. That's the essence of lock-in damage. Development tools should be development tools, not ways to control the market. That's why there is value in something th…

> If CUDA wouldn't have been tied to NVIDIA hardware... Initially I thought that AMD didn't offer a CUDA reimplementation out of NIH-syndrome (as it would be a marketing coup for NVIDIA), but then I saw that NVIDIA seem to be actively trying to shut-down independent attempts at running CUDA on non-NVIDIA hardware: https://www.techpowerup.com/319984/nvidia-cracks-down-on-cud...

They should lose. As I said in another comment, SCOTUS just ruled that APIs weren't copyrightable, and there's a HUGE parallel with Microsoft and Sun Microsystems over Java. In the end, Sun settled for Microsoft to stop saying "Java compatible" and $20 million. The community on the other hand got OpenJDK four years later.

Just do it. Fuck the lawyers. When you win, you toss some cash and they'll ya for it.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/sun-microsoft-settle...

Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#34

Post by HWR_14 »

arvinsim wrote: post #15
shmerl wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CUDA is pure lock-in, so it only makes sense for antitrust regulators to evaluate if it's causing anti-competitive damage to the market. Hint - it is. Lock-in is never good.

Wouldn't that logic also apply to, say, Apple?

Apple doesn't control an entire industry. You can buy an Android phone and fully participate in the mobile phone world never talking to Apple. You cannot participate in the AI world without NVIDIA.

Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#37

Post by ineedaj0b »

bicepjai wrote: post #23

Sometimes we just need to understand we donot have all the information before we give subjective opinion with incomplete information

we all work in the industry. you can tell if something is fishy you don't need to wait.

where there is smoke there is fire

Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#38

Post by elefanten »

roenxi wrote: post #26
vlovich123 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with monopoly laws is it doesn’t matter how you got into pole position. The point is that you’re illegally utilizing tangential benefits of the pole position to maintain that position as well as enter new markets. > including how the company’s software locks customers into using its chips, as well as how Nvidia distributes those chips to customers. The lock-in is probably a losing argument on technical meri…

Just on that last paragraph, because the frame annoys me - that is bullying. It isn't fair to insinuate that a company did something wrong by attempting to obey the law. MS knows all about antitrust. They've hired a bunch of lawyers and told them to do what needs to be done to be compliant with the regulations. That shouldn't then be implied as evidence that they are guilty of antitrust activities! What are the lawye…

You ignore “the spirit of the law” with fancy acrobatics around “the letter of the law”… at your own peril.

I can’t comment on the claims here, but if MSFT is skirting the intent brazenly enough, the predictable regulatory reaction is no bullying. Everyone involved is well aware of that dynamic. No need to pity MSFT.

Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#39

Post by shmerl »

HWR_14 wrote: post #34
arvinsim wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't that logic also apply to, say, Apple?

Apple doesn't control an entire industry. You can buy an Android phone and fully participate in the mobile phone world never talking to Apple. You cannot participate in the AI world without NVIDIA.

You don't need to control the entire industry to cause anti-competitive damage. You just need to have enough leverage that your influence can't be ignored.

Examples of Apple doing that is banning competing browsers on iOS and then pushing W3C and developers in the direction they want due to "you can't ignore us". There was a whole list of bad examples. Touch events, fighting against SPIR-V in WebGPU, fighting against adoption of Media Source Extensions (to benefit their video solutions) and etc. and etc.

They very clearly cause a ton of damage to the market by slowing down and sabotaging the progress of interoperable technology to harm competition.

Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI

#40

Post by Dalewyn »

roenxi wrote: post #8

Nvidia solved a hard problem and their competitors all failed. I spent years with an AMD card growing progressively more annoyed at their self-inflicted apparent inability to multiply matrices on demand. Nvidia had nothing to do with their failure, unless they had some sort of high-level mole in AMD's driver teams. Hitting the only successful company in a difficult field with legal assaults is not the obvious path to…

>not the obvious path to success.

It is if success is defined as deliberate failure.

Personally, a lot of US government actions of the past few decades in hindsight do not look like they had the interests of America or Americans in mind.

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