Live data from Hacker News

I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

nelson.cloud

521–530 of 625 posts

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#521
post #237

I understand the frustration, but at the end of the day I think they do serve a purpose. They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot). And this makes sense, because a false negative is low cost (maybe you spend 50% longer interviewing candidates) but a false positive is high cost (you hire an i…

At all the companies I’ve run we’ve used a simple whiteboard example for this reason. Don’t worry about typos; how does the person think. “Trick” questions are dumb, but you want to get an idea of if the candidate knows their stuff (and let the candidate know what we’re like — interviewing is a sales process in both directions). If someone asks a question like “is it ok to modify the argument” (or says “I’ll assume I…

>shuffle a deck of cards

Fwiw this is surprisingly subtle and non-trivial to get right. A naive "random swap" approach does not produce uniform permutations. Sorting based on a random comparison function can likewise produce biased results depending on the implementation of the sort. Tagging each element with a random number and then sorting based on the tag works (or so I think?) but you need to deal with the case where tags collide. Fisher-yates shuffle is bulletproof but I would not trust myself to write it from memory lest you end up writing Sattolo's algorithm instead.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#522
post #16

> I don’t really have a solution to this problem, I just know it’s a problem. The solution is simple: refuse to do those interviews. I have, and I wish more engineers would. It's one of my screening questions: do you do whiteboard style quiz/brainteaser interviews? If the answer is affirmative, I politely (and sometimes impolitely) decline. I've written a book, edited another, contributed to plenty of open source, in…

I have frankly dealt with some people, who wrote books, had lots of titles, yet were incompenent in the very subject their books are about. So yeah, does not mean much to me. I personally love whiteboard tests; shows your ability to code quickly and reliably.

> yet were incompenent in the very subject their books are about

Gonna on this one. I mean I guess anecdotes are cool, but yours goes against basically any editor/publisher due diligence, not to mention the financial incentive of writing a book in the first place (the book actually being good), but alright.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#523
post #16

> I don’t really have a solution to this problem, I just know it’s a problem. The solution is simple: refuse to do those interviews. I have, and I wish more engineers would. It's one of my screening questions: do you do whiteboard style quiz/brainteaser interviews? If the answer is affirmative, I politely (and sometimes impolitely) decline. I've written a book, edited another, contributed to plenty of open source, in…

I am genuinely curious: I am starting a company, and I need smart people; I do not care how good they are at programming language X, or technology T - all the skills my employees will need can be learned on the job. I want to optimize the time it takes for an arbitrary hire to become independent, to have learned the basics, and to make meaningful contributions. They would write code at most 20% of the time, and the j…

> They would write code at most 20% of the time, and the job has many other nuances.

You're being very nebulous and without knowing exactly what you're hiring for, it's hard for me to recommend a process.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all the skills my employees will need can be learned on the job. > optimize the time it takes for an arbitrary hire to become independent So you are looking for somebody in top 5% cognitive ability and top 5% independence which is what pretty much every other employer wants. My advice is if you can pay competitive FAANG salaries (or compensate lower salaries by prestige/saving humanity/bringing people to Mars), jus…

realistically we're looking for much higher (sub 1%) cognitive ability. I understand this is highly sought after, so we incentivize by paying a few times what FAANG does locally. I was genuinely wondering how OP preferred to be approached vis-a-vis this sort of assessment, since they suggested that they would walk out on conventional approaches. I mentioned cognitive ability and ability to learn as I feel those are h…

> realistically we're looking for much higher (sub 1%) cognitive ability.

Weird requirement, why? Even places like RenTech don't specifically look for the top <1% cognitive ability (and they quite literally print money).

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#525
post #261
post #224

I once had an interview that I really liked. It was for a bank. They give the candidate some messy, done-in-a-hurry code (but not purposefully obfuscated) and ask them to refactor it to the best of their ability. The interviewer sits next to the candidate and talks to them throughout the whole process. It's pretty much pair programming, but the candidate has the initiative. I found it to be a breath of fresh air afte…

> because they know what exact technologies they are using and they don't need to measure candidate's ability to learn new tech, etc Well leetcode interviews do not measure the candidate's ability to learn new tech either, do they?

To be fair I think it is a proof that the person can learn all of the leetcode stuff and therefore they might be clever/disciplined enough to learn new tech as well.

Although I don't find it very relevant. When I was fresh out of university, I was good with algorithms / data structures (neither of which I use much in actual work), therefore able to pass leetcode interviews just fine. Yet it was at the time challenging for me to learn new frameworks and I found all of the tooling I never heard of rather confusing.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#526
post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot categorically claim that LC tests are largely memorization tests rather than raw problem-solving skills. Sure I can. By the time you get to Leetcode hard, these aren't just "can you derive the answer". The questions by design take 45+ minutes and have some weird quirk in it that is nominally related to the core concept being tested. These aren't necessarily meant to be done on the fly during an interview…

Thank you. You just proved my point that “categorically LC is not largely memorization” by reinforcing that only in specific cases in some specific levels that you do need some specific domain knowledge.

My point is that LC hards were not intended nor designed to be perfromed in an interview setting, and essentially most people will only do the in that typical interview timeline if they've lucky enough to have seen it before or lucky enough to understand the specific domain knowledge.

So I'm not sure we're interpreting the same conclusion here unless you think trick questions are a mark of a "good engineer".

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#527
post #133

I understand the frustration, but at the end of the day I think they do serve a purpose. They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot). And this makes sense, because a false negative is low cost (maybe you spend 50% longer interviewing candidates) but a false positive is high cost (you hire an i…

> They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot). I've seen this reasoning, but I'm wondering if this is actually true, especially if you also believe the other myth in hiring: most people applying are not qualified for the job. Since most hiring actually requires you to fill the position in the…

> especially if you also believe the other myth in hiring: most people applying are not qualified for the job

As someone who’s done a lot of interviews, this is very true for SWE roles.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#528
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend who has interviewed about 30-40 software engineering candidates for his company (small, publicly traded company from the midwest). He said that FizzBuzz alone is enough to filter out 25% of applicants. The next slight more challenging question will axe another 30-40% of candidates. I think Leetcode hards exist to stroke the egos of select software engineers.

Yea, smaller and medium sized companies just don't have the recruiting infrastructure to weed out the fakers. When I worked in FAANG companies, by the time a candidate got to me, they were pretty good . They went through enough filters and checkpoints and annoying gates that I never really had to do a FizzBuzz equivalent. When I worked for more medium sized companies, I'd get software engineering candidates who obvio…

I agree. How are these people graduating? What does that say about our universities?

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>are we just going with a base assumption that interviewers can NEVER be trusted with anti-bias training and learning how evaluate people fairly? Yes. Because interviewing is 1. hard, but no company has proper full time proctors. So "expert interviewers" are a rarity 2. not standardized in the slightest. So your performance varies entirely by the interviewer, their style, and their mood that day. 3. some weird blind…

1. I’ve worked at multiple companies that absolutely have expert interviewers who design the interview questions and then teach mid-level engineers how to proctor them correctly. It’s like one 30 minute meeting, it’s not that big a deal. 2. All tech companies I’ve worked at since around 2015 have completely standardized interview questions, sometimes also hosted in a GitHub repo where any employee is free to comment…

1. I've 100% met with interviewers that felt like they were googling interview questions on the fly. YMMV which was the point of the "no standardization" argument. I've had interviews with no whiteboarding, some with whiteboarding, and some that simply felt like we both wasted our time.

2&3. I wish I could relate. I work in games, fwiw, so maybe it's simply more wild west than the other domains in such regardss. It's not even that I can't answer some of the questions, but if I'm asked a question on CPU architecture after I spent my time studying a bunch of C/++ trivia, I'm not going to answer the former as confidently since I'm pulling out knoweldge from a 3 year memory bank that I happened to work with at work.

>all the while YOU are the one benefitting from the system that cannot be changed.

I am? I'm a year out of a job and I sure wish I had a referral. My last studio shut down so those references scattered all over.

But for "whatever shall we do"... I don't have some magic perfect interview, but a few basic steps to save everyone's time:

1. we don't need 5-10+ rounds of interviews and 3 months just to make sure a candidate isn't a lemon. IMO if it's over 3 rounds (not including an HR call for basic alignment), there's some process that really isn't necessary. You dont need to speak to a CEO unless you're applying as a director or executive yourself. You don't need to meet every team member separately for their variation of an interview

2. Ghost jobs absolutely need to be regulated. I'm surprised it's even legal to lie to your shareholders and say "we're always growing" when half your postings have little intention of attracting a candidate. At the very least a job posting should delineate between urgent (hired withing 1-2 weeks of response), "normal" (2-4 week process), and "cold" (6+ week process, non-necessary role).

3. jobs should in fact give a general direction of what kinds of technical questions you expect to be asked for that portion. Who does it really benefit if one candidate happened to study leetcode (and the right kind of leetcode), but the other was focusing on system design, or questions about their specific industry problems solved? Or domain specific probblems?

Just a few ways to be honest, efficient, and bring out the best in candidates. Interviews shouldn't be so hostile to the labor the company clearly requires.

> if your questions can be memorized and recited by rote memory and the candidate can do well on it without the proctor knowing, then your questions are BAD or your proctor is a moron.

I agree in spirit. My only caveat sympathizing with interviewers is that most questions can indeed be "memorized", and arguably all questions/practices can be studied for. And there is some merit to trying to figure out how someone approaches a new problem. I think that approach is highly inefficient when you do in fact mostly want someone who "already memorized" the right domain knowledge, but I digress.

But people and their experiences are diverse. Without knowing their background (and again, some people seem to read the resume for the first time during the interview) you are never going to surprise 100% of your candidates with the same question bank. But that may be too much of a burden on trying to cater every inerview for every promising candidaet.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#530
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, smaller and medium sized companies just don't have the recruiting infrastructure to weed out the fakers. When I worked in FAANG companies, by the time a candidate got to me, they were pretty good . They went through enough filters and checkpoints and annoying gates that I never really had to do a FizzBuzz equivalent. When I worked for more medium sized companies, I'd get software engineering candidates who obvio…

I agree. How are these people graduating? What does that say about our universities?

Well, I'm not impartial... I kind of have a chip on my shoulder against these phonies, but if you want me to speculate: they are faking their way through university the same way they fake their way through everything else in their lives: Through things like charm, good looks, Ivy League mannerisms, confidence, a firm handshake, a beautiful smile, that certain way of talking like a salesman. During Character Creation, they put all their skill points into "charisma" and just use that to sail through situations the rest of us have to work through. I think we all encounter these people all the time during our careers, and it's infuriating that what they are doing is reliable and works.
Post reply on HN