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I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

nelson.cloud

411–420 of 625 posts

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#411
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not that rational unless you want someone only familiar with being the top code monkey. In all my years of sw dev the number of times that would have helped vs being able to communicate and manage expectations across a swath of people is like 1:1000.

To be fair, you need at least one person on the team to do the actual work, while everyone else is “communicating and managing expectations”.

That statement is not untrue, but I think it over-estimates how much of the "actual work" is banging out code, vs. making sure the correct code is being written.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#412
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A leet-code test would be much more standardized if candidates could solve it at home. Just send me a link to the quiz and let me solve it within a specified time frame. I've done tests like this for some companies. It felt a lot fairer and more closely resembling the actual work environment than live leet-code interviews, with biased interviewer(s) and a stress factor that's not a part of the actual job.

As a hiring manager I HATE leet-code tests, and they do nothing to differentiate candidates, but a take home in the era where people run chatGPT beside the interview window, or have someone else do the interview for them? Not a chance. You are 100% correct that it is way more representative, but the prevalence of cheating is ridiculous.

This does seem like a vexing problem, especially when interviews are conducted remotely.

I wonder if either of the following could be cost-effective:

(a) Fly the candidate to a company office, where their compute usage could be casually monitored by an employee.

(b) Use high-quality proctoring services that are nearby to the candidate. E.g., give them 1-2 days in a coworking space, and hire a proctor to verify that thy're not egregiously using tools like ChatGPT.

Or alternatively, would it suffice to just have a long conversation with the candidate about their solution? E.g. what design trade-offs they considered, or how might they adapt their solution to certain changes in the requirements.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? The log parsing thing is a reasonable question, not some obscure bitshift find-a-binary-paindrome hack.

The so-what was just to confirm that Amazon do leetcode interviews, contrary to your statement.

If you call any coding test "leetcode like interviews" then YES

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Done a similar thing in a Zoom interview. I had a horrible hard Leetcode question, was completely stuck and was getting nowhere (neither did the interviewers seemed keen on helping me out). I told them hey thanks this isn't my day I want to quit the interview - at this point they really tried hard to make me stay for the rest of the time. I think if a candidate wants out - you should let him.

I'm curious what motivated their attempts to keep you there. I can think of several possibilities.

I was referred to this company through a past colleague that was currently working there so it's possible they didn't want to bum out this person, but I actually don't think that was that - they looked genuinely surprised and a bit shocked when I wanted to stop which I can understand, it's not something that happens often at all. I think they just felt it was 'wrong' for an interview to be stopped short by the candidate and tried to rectify the situation.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#415
Everyone thinks they are google, if you are like 90% of tech companies and have a crud app, maybe a couple mobile apps and a few backend systems and admin tools, a radical idea is to involve your engineers in the interview design process and tailor your interview to the actual job they will actually be doing. Front end engineer and your stack is react? Pair with them on fixing a UI bug, backend engineer in rails, pair with them on a adding a basic endpoint. You get the point. If an engineer pairs for 30 min with someone I can pretty much guarantee they will have a strong sense of how they work and whether they know their stuff. I really don’t know why we treat this like it is some impossible task to determine if someone can do the job, just try doing the fucking job.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#416
post #237

I understand the frustration, but at the end of the day I think they do serve a purpose. They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot). And this makes sense, because a false negative is low cost (maybe you spend 50% longer interviewing candidates) but a false positive is high cost (you hire an i…

At all the companies I’ve run we’ve used a simple whiteboard example for this reason. Don’t worry about typos; how does the person think. “Trick” questions are dumb, but you want to get an idea of if the candidate knows their stuff (and let the candidate know what we’re like — interviewing is a sales process in both directions). If someone asks a question like “is it ok to modify the argument” (or says “I’ll assume I…

> We had one candidate who insisted that parsing a string and returning an integer was an unreasonable question because there was already a library function for it. “But what if you have an embedded system and no library?” (an actual situation for us, for part of our system). He was adamant — honestly that was a failure of the phone screen: had it been caught it would have saved us, and him, from wasting time.

Trying to debate the interview format or reject interview questions is one of my hard-stop rejection triggers in interviews now.

The couple times I’ve been part of hiring pipelines where candidates argued about the interview itself and then got hired anyway, they became extremely difficult employees within the company. Arguing about interview questions turned into arguing about every other ticket, code reviews, and every architecture choice.

I’ve had the same experience where we take an actual problem we solved in our codebase and turned it into a small interview problem. Same thing: Some candidates will try to debate the relevance or try to wriggle out of it.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#418
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are not software engineers and it shows massively. Coming from Real Engineering and making 2x more programming, I lol at people who say there is any Engineering in software. We are programmers dealing with layers upon layers of abstraction. Knowing to optimize for time by using vectors is more of an art, than a science. I did do safety critical C code and Assembly which are probably my hole in the whole 'its no…

Hillel Wayne did a good "study" on this by speaking to a bunch of engineers who moved into software, engineers who stayed in software, and engineers who only worked in software (yes, you can be a chartered engineer in most Western countries including the US and UK purely from software). The strong consensus was that software is an engineering discipline, and the nitpicking you can have on any particular topic that is…

> The strong consensus was that software is an engineering discipline

I see it as a difference in time and stakes.

We’ve built bridges and boats for thousands of years, where the outcome of failure is people die.

This has a lot to do with why it’s easy to estimate the time and cost to build a house, but it’s a rare shaman who can consistently estimate software projects well.

Once we’ve built software for even a few hundred years, we’ll probably have it pretty dialed in, too.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#419
post #294
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At all the companies I’ve run we’ve used a simple whiteboard example for this reason. Don’t worry about typos; how does the person think. “Trick” questions are dumb, but you want to get an idea of if the candidate knows their stuff (and let the candidate know what we’re like — interviewing is a sales process in both directions). If someone asks a question like “is it ok to modify the argument” (or says “I’ll assume I…

I have come to like this approach reasonably well. My current company uses a similarly simple problem to evaluate candidates. For me, it was a breeze, and I thought we’d be hiring slouches left and right. Once I started administering the interview, I realized that the majority of candidates absolutely bomb this simple question for one reason or another. It seems that “able to code a simple problem well” is a far less…

“Simple problems” often aren’t as “simple” as the retrospectively sound if you consider everything like stress level, mixed mindset of the interviewee (they’re not just thinking about a programming problem, they’re also thinking about social queues, mixing conversing in, peer judgement, and loads of other anxiety inducing factors), etc.

The software industry is notorious for underestimating overall complexity factors, understanding uncertainty, and time to manage them and interviews seem to be no different. So “simple” problems are often good (I agree with you) because they’re actually not so simple for most people when you factor everything in, they’re often reasonably challenging under the set of circumstances.

Meanwhile genuinely difficult problems (in any arbitrary setting and longer timelines) require a whole lot of rote training and reusing little clever idiosyncratic techniques that may or may not be generally useful, so you very often end up with a question lottery on whether you already know how to address the problem in question or not correctly vs having some problem where a reasonable solution and expectations around that can be derived in the time (and environment) it’s taking place. Lots of nonsense.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure anyone determined to do so can act unfairly regardless of what process is in place, but the fact that there is a standardized test in my mind does the opposite and makes the process much fairer. Assuming a fair-minded interviewer, the process gives a chance to a candidate whose resume may have less vaunted names on it to demonstrate their skill. I'm quite sure that I'd never have had some of the opportunitie…

> I'm sure anyone determined to do so can act unfairly regardless of what process is in place, but the fact that there is a standardized test in my mind does the opposite and makes the process much fairer. This is what privilege looks like. The inability to see barriers that affect others in a worse position. Standards do not imply fairness only consistency. You got a test that filters out people who lack the time to…

IIUC, in your view using standard tests is a damned if you do, damn't if you don't scenario.

Is there a solution that you'd recommend?

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