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I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

nelson.cloud

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Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#131

Post by koolba »

369548684892826 wrote: post #56
emodendroket wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure anyone determined to do so can act unfairly regardless of what process is in place, but the fact that there is a standardized test in my mind does the opposite and makes the process much fairer. Assuming a fair-minded interviewer, the process gives a chance to a candidate whose resume may have less vaunted names on it to demonstrate their skill. I'm quite sure that I'd never have had some of the opportunitie…

> the fact that there is a standardized test in my mind does the opposite and makes the process much fairer The problem isn't standardized tests, it's that leetcode questions are about having the time to have learnt the answer beforehand, rather than raw ability for problem solving.

> The problem isn't standardized tests, it's that leetcode questions are about having the time to have learnt the answer beforehand, rather than raw ability for problem solving.

This sounds like you want to penalize students who studied for the exams. Or at least not reward them.

Like all interview formats, it’s a proxy for understanding if the prospect would be able to get the work done and be a good fit with the rest of the team. I’d say it’s a pretty good proxy for work ethic at crunch time as well.

If your complaint is that a normal person wouldn’t have the time to study these things in detail, why would a company want to hire someone who has external obligations?

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#132

Post by alexey-salmin »

kristopolous wrote: post #64
SilverBirch wrote: post #29

I understand the frustration, but at the end of the day I think they do serve a purpose. They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot). And this makes sense, because a false negative is low cost (maybe you spend 50% longer interviewing candidates) but a false positive is high cost (you hire an i…

There's an entire industry of bootcamps built on the premise of teaching you how to pass this exact test in like 6 weeks. And because they ask pretty irrelevant questions, the 6 weeker will do better then the recent Stanford PhD who has been studying a specific problem for 5 years or the multimillionaire who spent the past 10 years building and selling successful software companies. Those people will fail and your 6…

I believe this is a common myth. I've spend around seven years teaching programming and people who can go from zero to decent problem solving in just six weeks are virtually non-existent.

Either it wasn't a true "zero" but rather they were really good e.g. at advanced math or physics and managed to see some parallels, or it has to be a genius. I'd be very interested in hiring such a person.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#133

Post by NhanH »

SilverBirch wrote: post #29

I understand the frustration, but at the end of the day I think they do serve a purpose. They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot). And this makes sense, because a false negative is low cost (maybe you spend 50% longer interviewing candidates) but a false positive is high cost (you hire an i…

> They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot).

I've seen this reasoning, but I'm wondering if this is actually true, especially if you also believe the other myth in hiring: most people applying are not qualified for the job. Since most hiring actually requires you to fill the position in the end (in other words, you can't leave it open indefinitely if no one qualifies as eventually the pressure to hire mount up), every false negatives does increase the odd of you hiring a false positives as well. Just take the example at the extreme, if there is only ever one person on Earth qualified for your job and you got a false negatives on him, there is no other way but getting an idiot in the job.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#134

Post by zabzonk »

blitzar wrote: post #105
zabzonk wrote: post #87

happened to me in an interview: them: implement reversing a linked list me: your company spends a lot of time reversing linked lists?

them: idk I am just the HR person, I dont know what we actually do here or what a linked list is.

me interviewing at big 6 accountancy firm as a software developer:

hr: you have do the same tests as the accountants

me: ok, hit me

.....scribble scribble

hr: you have simultaneously managed to get the lowest ever score on the arithmetic tests and 100% on the visual/spacial IQ tests, which no-one has ever done.

says something about me i suppose! and they hired me.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#135

Post by Phelinofist »

boffinAudio wrote: post #71
apples_oranges wrote: post #38

A friend once in the middle of a technical interview stopped speaking, stood up and went out. They ran after him, "what's wrong, you're doing fine!" and he told them it depresses him too much and he's not interested anymore. Sad, given that this is a fun profession for most of us (I assume)

I've done the same thing, at a games company well-known for its perks and benefits, but also its crazy production schedules .. I thought I wanted to work there, and up until about half-way through the interview, I did, but then out came the whiteboard and in came the peers to see me implement basic things in pen, and actually it felt like a ritualized mobbing, because as I progressed through their challenges, things…

Fortunately I never had a leetcode style interview. But I once interviewed at a place a friend worked at and they needed someone to bring their development up to speed (re-architecture, establishing processes, technical lead) and he recommended me for that. The interview partner was their new CTO (joined the company 2 months prior). From the start of the talk he was acting almighty and acted like I should be thankful for the opportunity I have been given. He was asking misleading technical questions. I was super confused first because I assumed malice first ("He is trying to trick me!") but as the interview continued I figured out that he really had no clue what he was taking about. Later during the interview I should describe my experience and I told him about the retail app suite I was the lead dev of for about 2y (POS software + back office + SAP interfaces). He proceeded to tell me that sounds quite nice, but the previous company he worked at did one million transactions per month - hah, eat that stupid peon! I was confused yet again, because that is really tiny? I told him that the project I led did that in a day. He accused me of lying. At that point I politely pointed out that we are not a good fit and wished him the best. 30 mins later my friend called me to ask what happened. The CTO apparently told everyone how poorly I behaved and how measly my skills are. When I told him about what really happened he was quite shocked. He talked to the CEO who did call me next day. I told him a sugarcoated version of what happened. A week later the new CTO was gone. According to my friend he also behaved to other employees in a similar way. The whole story is bizarre.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#136

Post by cherryteastain »

alexey-salmin wrote: post #39

Hot take: I like leetcode-style interviews and I've spent a lot of time in them on both sides of the fence (tens of hours as a candidate, hundreds as an interviewer). > But yet, these interviews quiz me on things that I can easily Google that I may not know off the top of my head. It’s absurd. I don't work at Google so I'm lucky to have freedom in the way I interview engineers and usually I try to squeeze out the qui…

As an interviewer, what you do seems to make sense and I do similar interviews. Removing the pressure of memorizing leetcode question algorithms (yes almost everyone has to memorize for leetcode hard to solve I also observed starting a process with easier questions still filters out the bad candidates (80%+). Once a candidate 3-4 rounds more open ended questions seem to be much more discriminative anyway.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#137

Post by yobbo »

dinobones wrote: post #6

Leetcode style interviews probably serve two functions: 1) A way to suppress wages and job mobility for SWE. Who wants to switch jobs when it means studying for a month or two? Also, if you get unlucky and some try hard drops an atomic LC hard bomb on you now you have an entire company you can no longer apply to for a year. 2) A way to mask bias in the process while claiming that it’s a fair process because everyone…

What about a type of blind interview where neither of the two know the problem or solution in advance. After, their solution is blindly reviewed/graded by a third party.

- Input from the interviewer reflects communication ability, cultural fit, and so on of the candidate.

- Input from the blind grader reflects ability of them as a team.

- Low grades count against the interviewer as well.

Bingo; now both are stakeholders in success.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#138

Post by CarpaDorada »

kristopolous wrote: post #64
SilverBirch wrote: post #29

I understand the frustration, but at the end of the day I think they do serve a purpose. They're not great at that purpose, but they're good enough and they generally produce false negatives (smart people fail) rather than false positives (you hire an idiot). And this makes sense, because a false negative is low cost (maybe you spend 50% longer interviewing candidates) but a false positive is high cost (you hire an i…

There's an entire industry of bootcamps built on the premise of teaching you how to pass this exact test in like 6 weeks. And because they ask pretty irrelevant questions, the 6 weeker will do better then the recent Stanford PhD who has been studying a specific problem for 5 years or the multimillionaire who spent the past 10 years building and selling successful software companies. Those people will fail and your 6…

Well said, like IQ tests, if you train for it you're better at it, but it the meaning of the results is dubious.

Recently I failed the first round of a fintech analyst position because I didn't complete the 9 undergrad (or high-school, in certain talented schools) math problems (I have a math PhD) in the 1 hour time frame. In retrospect, I should've cheated using computer/online assistance, and my true failure was my unwillingness to cheat. Not because fintech analysts are cheaters, but because the testing process is nonsense, so recognizing that, one should cheat it (indeed, an analyst mindset!) I'd rather be jobless than to adopt that mentality though. (and in fact I am, the only job I was able to find was a minimum wage service-type job, it can't even pay for daycare, I'd rather raise my child on my own while wife works thank God.)

We have high-interest rates and global crises resulting in companies not hiring while simultaneously governments give orders to news media to tout the strong economy. Ineffective hiring practices will always exist, but people don't complain when jobs are available; you only see this type of discussion online when things have gone sideways.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#139

Post by johnthewise »

369548684892826 wrote: post #56
emodendroket wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure anyone determined to do so can act unfairly regardless of what process is in place, but the fact that there is a standardized test in my mind does the opposite and makes the process much fairer. Assuming a fair-minded interviewer, the process gives a chance to a candidate whose resume may have less vaunted names on it to demonstrate their skill. I'm quite sure that I'd never have had some of the opportunitie…

> the fact that there is a standardized test in my mind does the opposite and makes the process much fairer The problem isn't standardized tests, it's that leetcode questions are about having the time to have learnt the answer beforehand, rather than raw ability for problem solving.

Some people can't do it whether they had the time to study, which the point of the test.

Re: I am sick of LeetCode-style interviews

#140

Post by lupusreal »

resource_waste wrote: post #88
watwut wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do produce plenty of false positives - just not "you hire an idiot" kind. You will hire a person completely unsuitable for the actual job, but is good at leet. Issue is not the lack of intelligence. Issue is not being software engineer despite being good at algorithms. Or not being good at whatever your position requires. I do work in a team where majority was hired by puzzles of sorts. All of them are smart. Th…

>They are not software engineers and it shows massively. Coming from Real Engineering and making 2x more programming, I lol at people who say there is any Engineering in software. We are programmers dealing with layers upon layers of abstraction. Knowing to optimize for time by using vectors is more of an art, than a science. I did do safety critical C code and Assembly which are probably my hole in the whole 'its no…

The fact that in 99% of cases "software engineer" is just an aggrandizing title given by management to any and every programmer at their company should put a bullet in the head of the pretentions of this being an engineering field.
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