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How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

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71–80 of 205 posts

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#71

The overwhelming loss in this calculation is from the antenna’s radiated energy spreading out over a larger and larger area (despite the directional “gain” factor). I’m wondering: would a probe launched today instead employ a laser to communicate? This would seem to offer many orders of magnitude improvement in the directionality of the signal.

The main challenge is the earth to probe comms for distant probes, since the earth is often very close (in an angular sense) to the sun from the probes perspective, and the sun gives out a lot of black body radiation.

However, due to the shape of the black body radiation curve, the sun gives out relatively less microwave radiation than it does visible light, which might outweigh the advantages of more directionality given by using a laser.

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#72

The overwhelming loss in this calculation is from the antenna’s radiated energy spreading out over a larger and larger area (despite the directional “gain” factor). I’m wondering: would a probe launched today instead employ a laser to communicate? This would seem to offer many orders of magnitude improvement in the directionality of the signal.

There's several projects for laser-based communication and research. It would also make it really difficult to aim since you can miss your target now.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-deep-space-optical-comm-...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Interferometer_Space_A...

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#73
post #42
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also very surprised voyager is using 2.3ghz, that's crazy saturated on earth due to wifi Wifi didn't exist when Voyager was launched...

But the band was free for use, wasn't it? (Obviously not crowded)

The ISM band is 2.4-2.5 GHz. Voyager at 2.3Ghz is outside the band.

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#74
post #69

The overwhelming loss in this calculation is from the antenna’s radiated energy spreading out over a larger and larger area (despite the directional “gain” factor). I’m wondering: would a probe launched today instead employ a laser to communicate? This would seem to offer many orders of magnitude improvement in the directionality of the signal.

I imagine it'd certainly employ some type of beamforming at the least.

Assuming you don't need fast steering, is a 3.7m transmitter array doing beamforming really better than a 3.7m dish transmitting at the same power?

My intuition would have been that you are better off using a fairly standard transceiver and spending your engineering budget either increasing power or getting a bigger dish (either by launching on a wider rocket or with a folding design).

Lasers might interesting for the downlink, but receiving a laser signal on the probe sounds difficult (earth is pretty bright).

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#75

The overwhelming loss in this calculation is from the antenna’s radiated energy spreading out over a larger and larger area (despite the directional “gain” factor). I’m wondering: would a probe launched today instead employ a laser to communicate? This would seem to offer many orders of magnitude improvement in the directionality of the signal.

The main challenge is the earth to probe comms for distant probes, since the earth is often very close (in an angular sense) to the sun from the probes perspective, and the sun gives out a lot of black body radiation. However, due to the shape of the black body radiation curve, the sun gives out relatively less microwave radiation than it does visible light, which might outweigh the advantages of more directionality…

Further, we're good at building really big radio transceivers here on Earth, we don't have nearly the same technical experience with lasers of that scale.

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#76
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Is that related to compressed sensing? I wonder if compress sensing could be used for something like the Voyager signals It seems there might be multiple ways to go beyond Shannon’s limit, depending on what you are trying to do

I don't think compressed sensing is really extracting more information than Shannon, it simply exploits the fact that the signal we are interested in is sparse so we don't need to sample "everything". But this is somewhat outside my area of expertise so my understanding could be wrong.

Maybe I’m mixing Shannon’s limit with the sampling rate imposed by the Nyquist-Shannon Sampling theorem

> Around 2004, Emmanuel Candès, Justin Romberg, Terence Tao, and David Donoho proved that given knowledge about a signal's sparsity, the signal may be reconstructed with even fewer samples than the sampling theorem requires.[4][5] This idea is the basis of compressed sensing

> However, if further restrictions are imposed on the signal, then the Nyquist criterion may no longer be a necessary condition. A non-trivial example of exploiting extra assumptions about the signal is given by the recent field of compressed sensing, which allows for full reconstruction with a sub-Nyquist sampling rate. Specifically, this applies to signals that are sparse (or compressible) in some domain

From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_samp...

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#77
post #46

Wasn't expecting my question to hit top of HN. I guess I'll give some context for why I asked it. I work in quantum error correction, and was trying to collect interesting and quantitative examples of repetition codes being used implicitly in classical systems. Stuff like DRAM storing a 0 or 1 via the presence or absence of 40K electrons [1], undersea cables sending X photons per bit (don't know that one yet), some k…

Very cool. It’s interesting to realize that at some level, every system is a quantum system if you “zoom in” enough

> at some level, every system is a quantum system

if we consider "quantum" to mean our quantum theory, at the level of general relativity, gravity is not a quantum system. and the qualifier "yet" is also not known.

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#78
post #68

>Voyager sends 160 bits/second This makes me wonder, are the bits = the power turned on for exactly 1/320th sec, every 1/160th sec? Or is the power on/power off ratio something different? Does it vary by protocol? What are the pros and cons?

Without looking up what kind of encoding and modulation they are using, I would assume that they are sending a continuous sine wave at the carrier frequency that has the bits - probably after encoding the raw data bits with some error correction code - modulated onto it by changing frequency, amplitude, phase, or a combination of them depending on the value of each bit or group of bits.

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#79

Wasn't expecting my question to hit top of HN. I guess I'll give some context for why I asked it. I work in quantum error correction, and was trying to collect interesting and quantitative examples of repetition codes being used implicitly in classical systems. Stuff like DRAM storing a 0 or 1 via the presence or absence of 40K electrons [1], undersea cables sending X photons per bit (don't know that one yet), some k…

> How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

wouldn't you also want to know how many photons are transmitted and how many bits transmitted are received?

Re: How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1?

#80
post #79

Wasn't expecting my question to hit top of HN. I guess I'll give some context for why I asked it. I work in quantum error correction, and was trying to collect interesting and quantitative examples of repetition codes being used implicitly in classical systems. Stuff like DRAM storing a 0 or 1 via the presence or absence of 40K electrons [1], undersea cables sending X photons per bit (don't know that one yet), some k…

> How many photons are received per bit transmitted from Voyager 1? wouldn't you also want to know how many photons are transmitted and how many bits transmitted are received?

All transmitted bits are also received, at least when everything works as intended.
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