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Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

chinamediaproject.org

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Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#61
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think you are being a critical thinker, but you are just playing into anti-Western propaganda that makes it seem like there is no difference between the two. It should be pretty clear that China has the most sophisticated propaganda system in the world, and you have been ensnared by it.

Continuing to the next step of this argument that has been had before ad nauseum: the West is arguably worse in these regards because China et al. make no bones about preferring order to freedom, while we nominally tout our "opportunity" while actually limiting it to a degree such that conversations like the one we're having take place. (Your argument's only refuge is in casting your opponents in this debate as hyste…

Oh please. The whole "no one is free anywhere, but at least those other people are honest about it" garbage. There should be a logical fallacy named after this sort of argument.

People in the West are measurably, significantly freer than people in China. That doesn't mean the West is perfect. That doesn't mean that there aren't bad actors in government and in the private sector who want to introduce more systems of control and propaganda.

But the difference is that we're allowed to speak out, protest, and fight against these people, and that allowance is enshrined in the lowest level of laws in most Western nations. Again: not perfect, and the worst of the bad actors will try to bend those laws to find loopholes to silence dissent. And sometimes they'll even succeed at that.

That is wildly different from an authoritarian censorship state like China where you get immediately deplatformed if you say things the government doesn't like. And that's the lucky outcome; annoy the government too much and they'll do far worse to you.

Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#62
post #60

China is too easy of an example of rewriting history by political will. In North Korea it is illegal to mention famine or hunger. In Florida it is illegal to mention climate change in any state document.

> In Florida it is illegal to mention climate change in any state document.

citation needed. Oh, found one: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article129837... ( https://archive.is/P9k4m )

> DEP officials have been ordered not to use the term “climate change” or “global warming” in any official communications, emails, or reports

I'm not sure that amounts to illegal, but they did at least make it career impairing. Would be interesting to see someone sue for wrongful termination on that basis...

Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#63
post #59
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an active war on the Internet Archive, et al. in the West by private corporations seeking to monopolize information. How is this a false equivalence? Glass houses. Remember Aaron Swartz.

The difference is that we can fight back in the West, and on this particular topic we are largely succeeding so far. The people of China cannot fight back against their government, have already lost, and have no recourse. Absent a drastic change in human nature, we are always going to have people who want to do these sorts of crappy things, in any society. In China, those people have the backing of the government. He…

> The difference is that we can fight back in the West, and on this particular topic we are largely succeeding so far.

By what metrics exactly?

Most people agree that Google etc results are increasingly useless, and it won't be long before AI content is based on previous AI content and all of the limitations inherent to that. Anything of value will be locked up and metered out based on class.

Given how captured by capital our political systems are in the West, it seems like only a matter of time before things are exponentially worse than our present point in the decline.

Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#64
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another false equivalence, not at all the same as in the West. This is government censorship scrubbing all search results from pre-2005. That Google update made it harder to search for groups that had put out misinformation and scammy SEO stuff, like googlebombing ("miserable failure" returns George W. Bush). Performing editorial or curatorial work is not in any way the same as a purge.

There is an active war on the Internet Archive, et al. in the West by private corporations seeking to monopolize information. How is this a false equivalence? Glass houses. Remember Aaron Swartz.

The Internet Archive jumped the shark and brazenly broke the law hoping they'd retroactively get pardoned for it. I dearly hope that the archive survives this lawsuit, but they 100% brought it on themselves.

Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#65

Intentionally or not this is -- exactly -- what 1984 is all about: changing our perception of history by rewriting or erasing previous writings. Unfortunately alot of it from the article seems typical: blogs going off line as bloggers move to new technolgoies, social media companies going defunct or just not keeping old content. Alot of these things can happen in the west. Remember these books you could read? "The Fe…

Tangential, but what is "The Feynman Letters" here? I know of a book of some of his letters, but not about censorship/loss thereof.

Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#66

Intentionally or not this is -- exactly -- what 1984 is all about: changing our perception of history by rewriting or erasing previous writings. Unfortunately alot of it from the article seems typical: blogs going off line as bloggers move to new technolgoies, social media companies going defunct or just not keeping old content. Alot of these things can happen in the west. Remember these books you could read? "The Fe…

Another false equivalence. "Intentionally or not" actually really matters here. It took work to maintain archives in the pre-digital era, and it takes work to maintain archives in the digital era. So many of those physical letters were lost, rotted, burned, etc. This is a purge, not a failure to maintain archives. This is like when during the Cultural Revolution, they literally burned archives and letters by intellec…

I love your replay, your answer is the near perfect summing up of the issue! My view is some here in America are starting to get too lenient towards Russia and other authoritarian states. Do we not understand that these states want complete control and don't care how they get it? Information and educational purges are two of many ways this is done. After that, it gets dirty.

Rule of thumb, if the Constitution says it stinks, it does. If we don't like something in it, work for a change. In China and Russia they don't have that right.

Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#67

Intentionally or not this is -- exactly -- what 1984 is all about: changing our perception of history by rewriting or erasing previous writings. Unfortunately alot of it from the article seems typical: blogs going off line as bloggers move to new technolgoies, social media companies going defunct or just not keeping old content. Alot of these things can happen in the west. Remember these books you could read? "The Fe…

> Posted on Wednesday, May 22, He’s post had been removed from WeChat by the following day, yielding a 404 message that read: “This content violates regulations and cannot be viewed.” You don't get your comments censored by commenting about natural entropy on the internet. You do get your comments censored by drawing attention to the censors. I get very tired of people drawing false equivalences between organic human…

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Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#68

Intentionally or not this is -- exactly -- what 1984 is all about: changing our perception of history by rewriting or erasing previous writings. Unfortunately alot of it from the article seems typical: blogs going off line as bloggers move to new technolgoies, social media companies going defunct or just not keeping old content. Alot of these things can happen in the west. Remember these books you could read? "The Fe…

Tangential, but what is "The Feynman Letters" here? I know of a book of some of his letters, but not about censorship/loss thereof.

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Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#69
post #56
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recently: Google refuses to turn up old pages. I was recently searching for a person who used to have a notable web presence before passing away about a decade ago. I had to dig to find a few links, through DDG and Yandex.

Yandex is getting more and more of my web queries lately. There's a definite irony there.

Google and Bing (so DuckDuckGo as well) seem to like searching for synonyms of search terms and returning the most popular results, thinking popular means relevant. I remember looking for something where I remembered the exact terms and not getting anywhere with them, but on Yandex it was the first hit.

Re: Loss of nearly a full decade of information from early days of Chinese internet

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Posted on Wednesday, May 22, He’s post had been removed from WeChat by the following day, yielding a 404 message that read: “This content violates regulations and cannot be viewed.” You don't get your comments censored by commenting about natural entropy on the internet. You do get your comments censored by drawing attention to the censors. I get very tired of people drawing false equivalences between organic human…

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