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60 kHz (2022)

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Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#21

Post by anyfoo »

Dalewyn wrote: post #14
anyfoo wrote: post #2

> I’m not particularly patriotic, but this kind of thing feels particularly American. ??? America has no doubt done some very remarkable things (the moon landing, the first backward compatible color TV standard), but I don't think this is a notable example of that. I think everyone in Europe was familiar with even wristwatches getting the time from "airwaves". At least in Germany, watches were a very common thing sin…

>what would be an example of technology that you can't either "touch with your hands" or that does "buzz in airwaves"? Microprocessors and lights/lasers respectively, among I'm certain countless other examples.

I can touch microprocessors, and lasers are buzzing in airwaves. It’s the same electromagnetic radiation as what we know as radio, just at much, much higher frequencies.

But this was asked in the context of solving this problem, in the 1950s.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#22

Post by mmastrac »

khaki54 wrote: post #7

I can picture a room full of engineers in ties, wearing pocket protectors full of implements, chain smoking cigarettes while coming up with this one.

More likely a radio nerd, John Alvin Pierce, that was just really good at radio and obsessed with oscillators (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/60675) that inspired a group of distinguished government-employed engineers and scientists.

In fairness, there _might_ be a pocket-protector in this picture of them but it's a bit blurry. Actually, yes, there definitely is. No cigarettes, however:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/t... on image to zoom&p=PMC3&id=4487279_jres.119.004f7.jpg

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4487279/

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#23

Post by neilv »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #15
khaki54 wrote: post #7

I can picture a room full of engineers in ties, wearing pocket protectors full of implements, chain smoking cigarettes while coming up with this one.

I can picture a black woman at a desk in a nicely pressed dress coming up with this one on pencil and paper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Figures

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#24

Post by pavel_lishin »

anyfoo wrote: post #21
Dalewyn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what would be an example of technology that you can't either "touch with your hands" or that does "buzz in airwaves"? Microprocessors and lights/lasers respectively, among I'm certain countless other examples.

I can touch microprocessors, and lasers are buzzing in airwaves. It’s the same electromagnetic radiation as what we know as radio, just at much, much higher frequencies. But this was asked in the context of solving this problem, in the 1950s.

Sure, but trench soldiers used to build their own radios. A soldier today stationed in the middle of a war isn't likely to assemble their own laser emitter.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#25

Post by pavel_lishin »

joshellington wrote: post #19
frankus wrote: post #13

It's kind of baffling that in 2024 there are appliances that exist for which I have to manually set the time, or at least have to go through some cumbersome IoT set-up process, that most likely is absolute garbage security-wise if it isn't actively acting against my interests (like those fridges that only work with first-party water filters). Maybe I'm under-thinking this, but couldn't my Wi-Fi router just broadcast…

Yes but then that would require consensus on protocol, encoding/decoding, etc., aka the things large companies are the worst at aligning on.

Plus you have to defend yourself from the neighborhood kid who thinks that it'd be a laugh riot to randomize everyone's clocks at 5:15 in the morning.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#26

Post by Eduard »

dfc wrote: post #9
2four2 wrote: post #3

There are several of these stations, they are maintained and operated by NIST. Two of them were almost shut down recently due to budget concerns: https://www.radioworld.com/global/why-wwv-and-wwvh-still-mat...

In April one of the two WWVB antennas failed (broke) because of 90mph winds. https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-di...

https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-di...

> Official Notice: Commencing from 0000 Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) on April 7, 2024, the southern antenna of WWVB has been rendered non-operational due to damage sustained from wind gusts exceeding 90 MPH. Please be advised that WWVB continues to function at a diminished overall power, utilizing only its northern antenna.

> Update 20 May 2024: The components necessary for the refurbishment of the southern antenna’s triatic are currently being manufactured and shipped. The projected timeline for the completion of these repairs is tentatively set for the latter part of June 2024. We would like to emphasize that this is an estimated timeline and may be subject to alterations based on a variety of factors. We greatly appreciate your understanding and patience during this process.

Can someone using WWVB radio clocks describe what the current situation is? Is the second working antenna strong enough to provide signals throughout the US / North America?

Are WWVB radio clocks popular at all?

Here in Europe, DCF77-based clocks are popular, especially with respect to automatic summer time adaption and (less obvious) leap second HANDLING. It would be very noticeable eventually if the DCF77 signal had severe issues.

Also, I'm very surprised about the abysmal historical uptime of Wwvb. It lists thirteen downtimes of more than 5 minutes each in 2023 alone.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#27

Post by Dalewyn »

anyfoo wrote: post #21
Dalewyn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>what would be an example of technology that you can't either "touch with your hands" or that does "buzz in airwaves"? Microprocessors and lights/lasers respectively, among I'm certain countless other examples.

I can touch microprocessors, and lasers are buzzing in airwaves. It’s the same electromagnetic radiation as what we know as radio, just at much, much higher frequencies. But this was asked in the context of solving this problem, in the 1950s.

>I can touch microprocessors,

No you can't, you're just touching the box they come in.

You can touch copper cables and wires, vacuum tubes, resistors, capacitors, breadboards, and (large!) printed circuit boards among other "basic" electronic components. You can't touch microprocessors, it's even stated on the tin they are microscopic in scale; you can't touch that in any meaningful way.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#28

Post by wayeq »

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #16

""I’m not particularly patriotic, but this kind of thing feels particularly American. Perhaps my imagination of American innovation is still set in the era of lunar missions and radio."" Yes. From the first trans continental train, telegraph, up through landing on the moon. It does inspire a lot of patriotism, it was very 'can-do' time. Very innovative, huge public works. The old technology is still amazing.

Not to mention the voyager missions.. still zooming out into interstellar space..

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#29

Post by joshellington »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #25
joshellington wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but then that would require consensus on protocol, encoding/decoding, etc., aka the things large companies are the worst at aligning on.

Plus you have to defend yourself from the neighborhood kid who thinks that it'd be a laugh riot to randomize everyone's clocks at 5:15 in the morning.

That would have absolutely been myself, wardriving at 16 (back in the early aughts). Sending nonsensical print jobs and then setting everyone’s clocks to 4:20.

Re: 60 kHz (2022)

#30

Post by anaidioschrono »

wglb wrote: post #18
tkzed49 wrote: post #6

the bandwidth is just enough to broadcast a single digit of binary every second. I'd be interested in some more context on this. I think it's pretty clear that you can encode more than 1bps in a 60kHz signal, but I'm curious how the encoding was chosen. There's some more detail on it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB#Modulation_format The WWVB 60 kHz carrier, which has a normal ERP of 70 kW, is reduced in powe…

By "atomic" clocks (for example https://www.amazon.com/Crosse-Technology-WT-3129B-Atomic-Ana... ), and older brands of watches. I think there are also older industrial applications using this technology to syncronize.

I love these clocks! I've had a few in every house I've lived in, from all along the West Coast and Midwest.
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