Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The rise of the disposable car

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 267 posts

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#251

Post by doubled112 »

fingerlocks wrote: post #237
blakes wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is probably no transmission in a US road car that can be replaced for $500 in labor at an auto shop. Your buddy or some rando may do it, but no shop will for that price. Typical shop rate is $120-$220/hour. Most shops are going to charge a minimum of 4 hours, but probably closer to 8 hours. Have you ever been under a car? The amount of "automation" required to replace a transmission is still in the arena of sci…

I have personally replaced a Volkswagen transmission in under an hour. I did it alone, in a driveway, with a regular floor jack, a skateboard, and a set of harbor freight wrenches.

The amount a shop is going to charge you often has little relation to how long it actually takes. They're there to make money.

I knew a kid changing turbos in Mk4 VWs on his lunch break. He had time to drive home, replace a turbo, and drive back to the shop.

Shop was still going to charge a few hours.

Labour last time I had front shocks and struts done? 3 hours not including the alignment.

Friend's brake job? 2.5 hours - they were 4 wheel disk, what was the mechanic doing for the other 2h?

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#252

Post by hagbard_c »

_yb2s wrote: post #126
nimbius wrote: post #75

The rich have been flogging this idea since cash for clunkers. That, because they run through cars like shit through a goose, you will too. Speaking as a master diesel mechanic, this is a deleterious line of thinking for anyone with less than a few million dollars. Every car has 20 years of parts, and most Japanese cars have closer into 50 years of parts. Any engine built after 2010 will likely last half a million mi…

Older cars are massively undervalued in the USA because of social norms, which is a massive opportunity to anyone willing to exploit it to get reliable transportation for nearly free. People are afraid that older cars are dangerous, unreliable, or (worst of all) will make you look poor, but all 3 are just misinformation. Boats and airplanes are just as reliable when old as new because they're maintained well- and car…

> pay maybe $1000-2000 every year to stay on top of stuff, and it stays reliable indefinitely.

...and then they implement some new laws which state that cars older than year X are no longer allowed within zone Y because of emissions (think 'ULEZ' in London or variations on the 'Milieuzone' in several Dutch cities). A few years later they update X to (X + a few years) and expand Y to (Y + the rest of where you want to go). They'll also write into law that you can not adapt your car to abide by the required emissions standards, no no, buy a newer car you shall.

This is common practice in many European countries, if there is no US equivalent yet there will be one soon enough.

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#253

Post by jaredhallen »

_yb2s wrote: post #126
nimbius wrote: post #75

The rich have been flogging this idea since cash for clunkers. That, because they run through cars like shit through a goose, you will too. Speaking as a master diesel mechanic, this is a deleterious line of thinking for anyone with less than a few million dollars. Every car has 20 years of parts, and most Japanese cars have closer into 50 years of parts. Any engine built after 2010 will likely last half a million mi…

Older cars are massively undervalued in the USA because of social norms, which is a massive opportunity to anyone willing to exploit it to get reliable transportation for nearly free. People are afraid that older cars are dangerous, unreliable, or (worst of all) will make you look poor, but all 3 are just misinformation. Boats and airplanes are just as reliable when old as new because they're maintained well- and car…

I'm all in on keeping older rigs on the road, but my experience has been that the monetary and effort cost is higher than what I'm seeing described here. Sure, it's technically possible to keep an older car in like-new condition, but it doesn't happen with an annual $1k trip to the shop. Cars are neither boats nor airplanes. The amount of use they get is an order of magnitude more. Everything wears out. Seats, window regulators, body mounts, pedals, interior molding, etc. That's all on top of the normal wear items like drivetrain, suspension, and whatnot. My househould has three vehicles currently, with 280k, 310k, and 420k miles on their respective odometers. I'm glad to keep them going, but it's constant upkeep, and the parts bill alone is quite substantial. Works for me, but definitely isn't for everyone.

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#254

Post by ssl-3 »

giobox wrote: post #215
toast0 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Checking that state of the fluid isn't difficult, as is bright red when it's new, and turns more and more brown when it's used, and it's mostly used normally between 50k and 100l AFAIK. Yeah, but getting to the fluid to see it is hard. They stopped putting in dipsticks, so hopefully there's a check plug somewhere you can get to.

Is the check plug really even necessary for a trans fluid swap a lot of the time? I just drain mines and refill to specified amount, I've never once cared for a check plug and just change it every ~50k miles on most of my cars, regardless of color. It's usually not an expensive fluid.

With neither a dip stick nor a check plug, how does one know how that the transmission contains the "specified amount"?

I mean: Automotive fluids tend to shrink over time, for a wide variety of reasons. (And sometimes, they get bigger, which is usually even worse.)

How do you know that it has the correct level?

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#255

Post by giobox »

ssl-3 wrote: post #254
giobox wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the check plug really even necessary for a trans fluid swap a lot of the time? I just drain mines and refill to specified amount, I've never once cared for a check plug and just change it every ~50k miles on most of my cars, regardless of color. It's usually not an expensive fluid.

With neither a dip stick nor a check plug, how does one know how that the transmission contains the "specified amount"? I mean: Automotive fluids tend to shrink over time, for a wide variety of reasons. (And sometimes, they get bigger , which is usually even worse.) How do you know that it has the correct level?

On most cars you simply fill till it starts leaking out of the fill hole - like changing oil, it normally doesn't require a precision fill, just close enough.

1. The drain hole is below the fill hole - open drain hole and empty using good old fashioned gravity.

2. Close drain hole.

3. Open fill hole.

4. Fill till it starts leaking out the fill hole.

5. Close the fill hole.

Not especially complex most of the time! Transmission fluid does not really shrink much over time, its a sealed system and it doesn't burn off the way engine oil can. Just doing it at regular intervals like 50k miles is absolutely fine on a lot of cars. If you really do care about hitting some specific quantity of fluid - you know exactly how much you are pouring into the fill hole, you can even measure exactly what came out the drain hole, but this probably is not remotely necessary.

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#256

Post by yterdy »

toast0 wrote: post #81
nimbius wrote: post #75

The rich have been flogging this idea since cash for clunkers. That, because they run through cars like shit through a goose, you will too. Speaking as a master diesel mechanic, this is a deleterious line of thinking for anyone with less than a few million dollars. Every car has 20 years of parts, and most Japanese cars have closer into 50 years of parts. Any engine built after 2010 will likely last half a million mi…

At least in my area, the problem is labor costs. If you can do things yourself, it's great. If you need a mechanic to do it, you're looking at a big expense, because mechanic labor is expensive and there's a lot more covers and harder to get to parts these days. 'Maintenance free' transmissions are very common in newer cars, and they do tend to need less maintenance, but when they do, there's often not a great way to…

It would be nice if I could "work with" a mechanic. Pay 1/4 the labor cost and she guides me (I also rent tools and shop time from her so it's more like 1/2).

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#257

Post by yterdy »

_yb2s wrote: post #169
balderdash wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re right but I think (at least in my own experience) that what gets people to buy a new(er) car is that that people don’t like driving cars that have broken things (windows, switches, lights etc.) that make no sense to fix (say $1500, to fix something non-essential on a car that’s only worth $10k)

That's definitely a case where being a little handy pays off- most of the little things that break on an older car can be fixed for free in a few minutes if you follow a youtube video or forum instructions, but a shop has to charge a lot. Usually it is a common problem, and there will be a known "trick" that fixes it simply. A shop is not going to re-solder a cracked relay or get a used plastic trim for $1 at a junky…

Again, some things aren't worth fixing, and they build up. The fabric on my headliner detached. Quickly went from "foam slightly exposed" to "sagging across the width of the backseat". Car is worth less than 5 grand, would be almost 1 to fix. It's a good thing I didn't, because brake troubles cost about as much and were necessary to fix.

I think a lot of waste goes into maintaining cars cosmetically.

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#258

Post by ssl-3 »

giobox wrote: post #255
ssl-3 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With neither a dip stick nor a check plug, how does one know how that the transmission contains the "specified amount"? I mean: Automotive fluids tend to shrink over time, for a wide variety of reasons. (And sometimes, they get bigger , which is usually even worse.) How do you know that it has the correct level?

On most cars you simply fill till it starts leaking out of the fill hole - like changing oil, it normally doesn't require a precision fill, just close enough. 1. The drain hole is below the fill hole - open drain hole and empty using good old fashioned gravity. 2. Close drain hole. 3. Open fill hole. 4. Fill till it starts leaking out the fill hole. 5. Close the fill hole. Not especially complex most of the time! Tra…

Fascinating.

On the E36, which has no prescribed transmission service interval or dip stick, there are two transmission sumps -- and only one of them has a drain plug. Replacing the fluid means pulling one sump off completely...and pre-filling it prior to reinstallation.

On the Honda, which has a regular interval for transmission fluids and a dip stick, the fill plug is on top of the transmission. It would be a bad thing to fill it to that level. (I just refill using the dip stick tube.)

Also, I'd like to add that I am envious of the fact that you have never experienced a leak in any automatic transmission.

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#259

Post by fragmede »

doubled112 wrote: post #117
talldatethrow wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire comment seems off. They said thanks to automation labor will be $500. What automation is there in replacing a used transmission in a garage on an oily rusty 200k mile car on a lift.

I caught that too, but decided to ignore it. There isn't an automation in the world that will take enough of the car apart for you. Or at least my mechanic friends haven't found it. Will keep waiting for AI to grow itself some arms.

We're still a long ways from that level of automation, but pitpro automation is picking up after robotire had to file for chapter 11, and is working on automating the tire swap end of things.

Re: The rise of the disposable car

#260

Post by fragmede »

_yb2s wrote: post #126
nimbius wrote: post #75

The rich have been flogging this idea since cash for clunkers. That, because they run through cars like shit through a goose, you will too. Speaking as a master diesel mechanic, this is a deleterious line of thinking for anyone with less than a few million dollars. Every car has 20 years of parts, and most Japanese cars have closer into 50 years of parts. Any engine built after 2010 will likely last half a million mi…

Older cars are massively undervalued in the USA because of social norms, which is a massive opportunity to anyone willing to exploit it to get reliable transportation for nearly free. People are afraid that older cars are dangerous, unreliable, or (worst of all) will make you look poor, but all 3 are just misinformation. Boats and airplanes are just as reliable when old as new because they're maintained well- and car…

No. A 10 year old Mercedes is not preferable to a newer used Honda Civic in terms of maintenance and reliability, unless you're a mechanic yourself. it's true that it's nicer vehicle, but having to go to a Mercedes service center instead of an independent shop really racks up the bills. If you're getting the used Mercedes because you don't have the finances to get a new one, the maintenance costs to have the Mercedes are going to sink you even further into debt, compared to a Honda Civic/equivalent.
Post reply on HN