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EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#41

Post by ckastner »

jonatron wrote: post #4

Why is there gatekeeping of "professional" repairers and "repair services"? Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? If a washing machine costs £220, and a professional repair man costs £70 per hour, nobody will repair out of warranty.

> Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part?

Have you ever helped a family member with their computer problems, only to notice that they often start as something benign, and the mess you are dealing with is from the family member attempting to fix that benign problem themselves?

Outside of tech, how many people do you know who actually read manuals instead of just going at it?

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#42

Post by watwut »

incognito124 wrote: post #40
jll29 wrote: post #37

This is only phase one; the citizens of Europe must now petition their own countries to implement great "Right to Repair" laws. Important economic fact: If only one single European country (with sufficient population) implements a rather strict right to repair law, then likely all manufacturers in all countries will need to adhere to it, since tech companies don't like to have to build multiple product variants (per…

A more probable outcome of a single country doing that is that new products won't be available there

That is super improbable in case of big countries.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#43

Post by watwut »

ckastner wrote: post #41
jonatron wrote: post #4

Why is there gatekeeping of "professional" repairers and "repair services"? Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? If a washing machine costs £220, and a professional repair man costs £70 per hour, nobody will repair out of warranty.

> Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? Have you ever helped a family member with their computer problems, only to notice that they often start as something benign, and the mess you are dealing with is from the family member attempting to fix that benign problem themselves? Outside of tech, how many people do you know who actually read manuals instead of just going at it?

I do read manuals. They are usually badly written and often times very hard to understand because of that. Like using terms they don't explain, having multiple interpretations and even referencing buttons that font exists.

For that matter, if documentation to windows or whatever was less incomprehensible, the random people trying to fix computer would had better chance.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#44

Post by Damenspr »

jonatron wrote: post #4

Why is there gatekeeping of "professional" repairers and "repair services"? Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? If a washing machine costs £220, and a professional repair man costs £70 per hour, nobody will repair out of warranty.

And most of those "professional" are people that skipped college and mostly highschool.

Having the knowledge to work on anything a job can throw at you and having the knowledge to work on what you have are two very different things.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#45

Post by jajko »

jll29 wrote: post #37

This is only phase one; the citizens of Europe must now petition their own countries to implement great "Right to Repair" laws. Important economic fact: If only one single European country (with sufficient population) implements a rather strict right to repair law, then likely all manufacturers in all countries will need to adhere to it, since tech companies don't like to have to build multiple product variants (per…

More like 450 million, much bigger market than US for example. Plus even non-members cca adhere to most rules, sometimes make them much tougher (ie Switzerland). Britain may be soon an exception, ie US food lobby right to government got very strong right after Brexit, I guess HFCS or GMOs needs more markets to sell.

Not all of it it as rich as average US, but overall manufacturers can't ignore us.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#46

Post by 8372049 »

impossiblefork wrote: post #33
8372049 wrote: post #28

As far as I can tell, this directive mainly mandates that producers offer to repair certain categories of products, for a price or for free and that independent professional repair shops/services can access tools, parts and information needed to do so. > Producers shall ensure that >independent [professional] repairers (From Art. 5) Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing here granting the right or feasibility…

I don't see how you'd get out of anything by an EULA. In Sweden such agreements aren't legally binding at all. I'm sure it's the same way elsewhere.

Are you sure about that? The core rule is usually that contracts are binding. In some cases they are void if exceptionally unreasonable.

> While this proposal regulates certain business practices concerning repair in view of the sustainable consumption objective, >it safeguards contractual freedom

Page 8

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#47

Post by ed_blackburn »

jonatron wrote: post #4

Why is there gatekeeping of "professional" repairers and "repair services"? Why can't I as a consumer view a service manual and buy a part? If a washing machine costs £220, and a professional repair man costs £70 per hour, nobody will repair out of warranty.

It feels like manufacturers are steering the economy away from consumers "owning" products outright to a model where we consume them through subscriptions or financing arrangements. In this new model, consumers notionally own the product but pay a subscription for repairs. What are the upsides of this shift? Products become more accessible, as the upfront cost is reduced and spread over a longer period. Products last longer because the vendor has an obligation to maintain them for much longer. This is better for the environment; in a world of finite resources, we want our products to last longer.

However, there are considerable downsides. The very notion of ownership is being challenged. Restrictions placed on owners regarding what they can do with their products can limit personalisation, modification, or even resale, thereby reducing the true sense of ownership. While more money circulating in the economy benefits everyone, allowing us to grow while consuming fewer resources, the wealthier members of society will still be able to afford more upfront and get better products. They are likely to be rewarded with lower subscription costs or higher-quality products.

Consider Sam Vimes' "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness, which illustrates this point perfectly.[0]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#48

Post by sunaookami »

That's not "right to repair". Right to repair is:

- I can repair it myself

- with free access to schematics

- with access to spare parts

- without coupling between hardware and software

The EU completely misunderstood what right to repair is and is now implementing something so that they can say that they have "right to repair". This will damage the RTR movement even further. I wonder who lobbied for this.

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#49

Post by [deleted] »

sunaookami wrote: post #48

That's not "right to repair". Right to repair is: - I can repair it myself - with free access to schematics - with access to spare parts - without coupling between hardware and software The EU completely misunderstood what right to repair is and is now implementing something so that they can say that they have "right to repair". This will damage the RTR movement even further. I wonder who lobbied for this.

[deleted]

Re: EU countries must implement right to repair laws within two years

#50

Post by impossiblefork »

8372049 wrote: post #46
impossiblefork wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you'd get out of anything by an EULA. In Sweden such agreements aren't legally binding at all. I'm sure it's the same way elsewhere.

Are you sure about that? The core rule is usually that contracts are binding. In some cases they are void if exceptionally unreasonable. > While this proposal regulates certain business practices concerning repair in view of the sustainable consumption objective, >it safeguards contractual freedom Page 8

Well, since EULAs are straight-up invalid in Sweden, obviously it can't be done in an EULA. If it were allowed it have be part of an agreement with the company that is done before the sale, and which is an actual proper contract.

Article 16 says only:

Article 5(1) and (2) and Article 6 of this Directive shall not apply to contracts for the provision of repair services concluded before [24 months after the entry into force].

2. Article 12 of this Directive shall not apply to sales contracts concluded before [24 months after the entry into force]

So while the wording you mention, it seems to only provide a transitional provision before people get used to the law.

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