I'm going to take the contrarian view here. If Iran had gotten to the point of enriching uranium to weapons-grade levels and Israel had done a pre-emptive strike, that would have gotten messy real fast. More messy than this. Disabling their centrifuges in a way where presumably no one died doesn't sound so bad to me considering the alternative. Again, just the contrarian viewpoint.
US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
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Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#52It's a new cold war. Eventually Iran will write viruses in return to attack US power grid. All fun and games until Homeland Security Theater is given new powers to raid your home and shoot your dog if they think your computer is being used as part of a botnet.
The centrifuges could have been destroyed, and with loss of human life. The system itself was damaged. I wouldn't call this a "cold" war. It is a very real, very physical war(albeit precisely targeted, for now).
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
You should actually read that link; the emails indicated HBGary were interested in using Stuxnet (probably the framework or exploits it used), but not that they had any idea who actually made Stuxnet. So no, Anonymous didn't "scoop" anything.
Aaron Barr talks to Defence Intelligence Agency and DoD about StuxNet in 2010, they had a copy given to them in 2009 that they claim was a US produced binary. Keep in mind stuxnet was 'discovered' in 2010. First reference to Stuxnet being U.S. government produced? You decide.
There were many previous references, but zero previous confirmations.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Violation of international law huh...as long as the law doesn't apply to America or Israel I guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_s... http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/29/us-israel-nuclear-... Oh, that and the fact that America and Israel can't trust anyone but themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5-9aAFvWXA
No arguments on settlements, but would you point to hard evidence that the US is in violation of NPT? I am getting tired of sourceless claims here.
Article 6 of the NPT obliges the US, and other nuclear powers, to make good faith efforts to reduce, and eventually eliminate, their massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons.
The US is so far away from ever putting any effort into this that Article 6 is all but unknown, and no one even remotely takes it seriously. International law is for nations without the power to effective ignore it.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#55You know what's most surprising about this? That the developers, knowing fine well it was for a single target and the damage it could do in the wild, didn't implement a kill switch.
Quite frankly cowboy coding like that is why we'll end up with Skynet becoming self-aware.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#56I'm going to take the contrarian view here. If Iran had gotten to the point of enriching uranium to weapons-grade levels and Israel had done a pre-emptive strike, that would have gotten messy real fast. More messy than this. Disabling their centrifuges in a way where presumably no one died doesn't sound so bad to me considering the alternative. Again, just the contrarian viewpoint.
I don't think that's contrarian.
If your choices are between allowing Israel to start a new war in the middle east, or work with Israel on this risky new cyberweapon, I think most people would pick the cyberweapon.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#57You know what's most surprising about this? That the developers, knowing fine well it was for a single target and the damage it could do in the wild, didn't implement a kill switch. Quite frankly cowboy coding like that is why we'll end up with Skynet becoming self-aware.
How do you put a kill switch in? The entire point was for it to be on an offline system, and the traffic for it checking for Internet to in turn check for an order like that might have given the game away.
It sounds like they had something to check it wasn't outside and someone just screwed up.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless David E. Sanger is a new Jayson Blair, I'd say the connection is confirmed, not just suspected. There are no weasel words in the article, meaning both the journalist, his editor, and NYT are putting their reputation at stake. This is as strong as a newspaper story gets.
Is it really true that "someone published in a newspaper said so, therefore we can rely on its being true"? I don't think so. Hard data, credible sources are what make a strong newspaper story - not a convenient message from someone who would be embarrassed if the story were untrue (something which is at least as hard to disprove in this case as it is to actually prove)
Depends on who "someone" is, what the "newspaper" is, and what was said with "said so".
In this case "someone" is a double Pulitzer Prize winner, and what was said was something of a nature that means the editor in any reputable newspaper will demand hard evidence, i.e. he will have the names of all the sources, and confirmed with at least some of them. If the story is a fraud (possible, look up Jayson Blair), the editor would have to be in on it, and it would be a larger scandal than the story itself, which really just confirms what everybody already suspected.
The story is as good as investigative journalism gets.
And yes, reputation matters a lot in journalism. Jayson Blair is a life coach today.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some things are a question of right, some things are a question of need or interest. The US has enemies and it doesn't want them to have nuclear weapons.
Is there any proof that the facility in question deals with uranium enrichment for military purposes?
No but the original article states a fear that the facility could be used to create a stockpile that could then be enriched to weapons-grade should Iran chose to do so. I'm not saying whether that is right or wrong but The article in the NYT states the President's fears.
Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it
#60Wasn't the US all up in arms about how China was increasingly using cyber-warfare on both foreign government and corporate interests?
Then it turns out they are doing it themselves? Tut Tut. Though not really surprising.
I do feel though that with the success that lolsec had last year very few companies / governments are prepared against a concerted attempt to access their data.