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One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

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Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed. The entire system is designed to drain as much val…

'At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker.' "Siphoned off"? The shareholders funded the automation that boosted the workers' productivity.

Then the question is: how they came about getting that much cash that they could fund such a thing?

Did they get it solely from their hard work or a large amount of luck/exploitation was involved? It is a rhetorical question, because of course the only right answer is the latter. The reality is that across all ages, you could never get there just by hard work.

I have a very fitting example in my family: my great-uncle/aunt were hardworking people and extremely thrifty (not to stay stingy, but to be fair they grew up in war time when everything was in short supply). Yet after 42 years of stable hard-working career and 33 years of confortable retirement pension (over the median salary for the area); the total of their assets doesn't even cross the million euros mark.

In a way they could have much more if they had put their capital to work, but since they were simple blue-collar workers, they did not, and what they end up with is just the result of their labour (and social system). This amount could just about pay for the adult life of a single person at minimum wage and you could barely fund a small/medium business acquisition. There are many businesses in the area that sell their assets for much more than that, and you would still need to exploit it to get anything; which is exactly where we started: make other people work to make you money, and give them less for their labour than you make exploiting the assets.

It took them over 75 years to accumulate all that, anyone getting that much cash earlier in life either inherited it or got lucky another way (did something that somehow got valuation way over the actual labor cost, which is basically the case for all early tech stuff).

The shareholders didn't fund jack shit, they took some money from someone else and used it as leverage to exploit the labor of other people, it's simple as that. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#482
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a helpful mindset. Because things were worse before, we should ignore how they are still not faultless?

The comment I replied to made no constructive suggestions.

They didn't explicitly, no. But implicitly, their constructive suggestions seem obvious to me. Reduce barriers to benefits often called "means testing" - also make them more comprehensive.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#483
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worth of labor is not the worth of product/service. Amazon picks the places where it can hire extremely cheap labor, because usually they are the only game in town. (monopsony market for labor.) it happened without automation and happens with automation too. of course it's on society to help those who are stuck in these unfortunately places.

> monopsony market for labor Yes, when the inelastic aggregate supply of labor (expressed as an explicit work quota or expressed as an implicit work quota equal to cost of living divided by wages) exceeds the demand for labor, capitalism turns what should be a happy situation (let's all work a bit less!) into a horror show where working hard for scraps is a privilege and rotting in unemployment is the norm.

we are working less.

is it due to capitalism? is it just the technological progress fairy? (maybe the fairy is more attracted to the smell of capitalist pigs?)

it's not capitalism's fault that people are extremely bad at coordination problems (it's Mr. Moloch's fault obviously, who poisons people's minds with shortsightedness!)

it's not capitalism's fault that people choose to block densification of cities, higher taxes, welfare reforms, or that people vote based on their xenophobia.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The correct comparison would be of the marginal cost of eligibility testing (both in terms of false positives and false negatives) vs the marginal cost of fraud. There is a much better way to do this, because the way we do it is entirely asinine. On the one hand we say that people who make more money should pay higher marginal tax rates, and set marginal rates on lower income people to low or zero rates. On the oth…

A flat tax disproportionately favors the rich and hurts the poor; a progressive tax is much, much more fair. A poor person making $2k a month can make more use of $200 to improve their lot vs what the person making $2M can do with $200k to improve theirs

You've missed the part where we've already removed -- no, inverted -- the progressive rate structure via benefits phase outs.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To begin with, that isn't what "complex" means. Having to track every income source to every citizen in order to impose differential marginal rates is always going to be more complex than not doing that. We nominally do it so people who make more money pay higher effective tax rates -- but a flat tax with a UBI does the same thing. If everybody paid a 30% marginal rate and everybody got a $12,000 UBI then the effecti…

>Having to track every income source to every citizen in order to impose differential marginal rates is always going to be more complex than not doing that. It's the same exact load as tracking everyone's income source to impose a flat tax. Taxing income is the same "tracking load" whether the tax system is progressive, flat, or regressive. >That's a progressive tax system. No it's a flat system with a $12k UBI. The…

> It's the same exact load as tracking everyone's income source to impose a flat tax. Taxing income is the same "tracking load" whether the tax system is progressive, flat, or regressive.

It is not. If you go and work for a corporation and they pay you a salary without a flat tax, they don't know what your tax rate will be. It depends on whether you do any work for someone else, or sell any property with a taxable gain, or have any tax deductions, all of which change your taxable income and therefore your tax rate, so now you have to keep track of all of them.

With a flat tax the rate is always the same, so your employer withholds the tax from your paycheck, the seller of some deductible product simply doesn't pay tax on it to begin with, and there is no individualized calculation to do because the rate for each thing is always the same and known ahead of time.

> No it's a flat system with a $12k UBI. The effective tax rate of a millionaire and a billionaire is the same in your system because it's flat.

The effective tax rate of a millionaire and a billionaire are as much the same in the existing system. Someone who makes $5 million currently pays ~36% compared to someone who makes $5 billion who pays ~37% (because the highest bracket is 37%).

> A million of income would pay 29.64%, a billion of income 29.99%. That's literally less progressive than those incomes would pay today.

That has nothing to do with the mechanism, it's just because the example rate was 30% instead of 37%. You can make it arbitrarily more or less progressive by changing the flat rate and the amount of the UBI.

But also notice that you wouldn't need tax rates to be as high, because in a simpler system less of the money would be wasted on administrative overhead or arbitrary constraints on what the poor can do with the money which causes it not to go as far for them. And they would spend less time doing benefits paperwork which they could instead spend doing work that earns money, or use the time for DIY instead of paying someone else to do things they didn't have time to do. Allowing everyone -- including them -- to pay lower tax rates from the increase in efficiency.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#486
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wherever you’re getting the pay rate info is wrong. You can go to the Amazon Hiring site and see they’re offering $20.75/hr right now in California. Amazon has always paid high wages for warehouse work, and not even close to the Federal line, so brining that up proves nothing.

I'm sure Bezos appreciates the PR you're doing for him, but you're wrong. "Up to $20.75/hr" is what they're offering, that's not the same as $20.75/hr. The pay rates marginally above minimum wage for California. https://hiring.amazon.com/app#/jobDetail?jobId=JOB-US-000000...

Attacking someone character shows mental weakness. Even if everyone in the state worked at that pay rate, it would still be more than enough to live above poverty, which was the original point. If you want a consolation prize for finding a single contrary data point, then you’ve done it but haven’t really said anything relevant.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#487
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure Bezos appreciates the PR you're doing for him, but you're wrong. "Up to $20.75/hr" is what they're offering, that's not the same as $20.75/hr. The pay rates marginally above minimum wage for California. https://hiring.amazon.com/app#/jobDetail?jobId=JOB-US-000000...

Attacking someone character shows mental weakness. Even if everyone in the state worked at that pay rate, it would still be more than enough to live above poverty, which was the original point. If you want a consolation prize for finding a single contrary data point, then you’ve done it but haven’t really said anything relevant.

> Attacking someone character shows mental weakness.

Sure sounds like an attack on my character...

You didn't clarify what kind of minimum wage you're talking about, and I pointed out that you're mistaken regarding state minimum wages.

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