Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say • Hacker News Board

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#171

Post by ranger_danger » Thu, May 23, 2024, 5:16 AM UTC

anonymousnotme wrote: post #159

nrdgrrrl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you can find the GPS antenna and disconnect it?

Is the GPS two way or one way? I had the impression that the GPS signals went from satellite to earth, but the receivers did not send a signal to the GPS satellite. I thought onstar connected the cellular network. If I have the wrong information and somebody has more specifics about this, I would really like to know. From reading the wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar Looks like the cellular network…

GPS is receive-only for civilians.

The sharkfin style antenna pod is typically a PCB with several different antennas on it: https://p.globalsources.com/IMAGES/PDT/B1188507781/Shark-fin...

But for most cars today, removing the antenna would require removing the dash and radio, possibly voiding the warranty or a lease agreement if you have one.

Interesting comment about AI training data... surely that would violate GDPR.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#172

Post by ranger_danger » Thu, May 23, 2024, 5:17 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #30

CivBase wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You own the hardware. But in the modern world we do not own the software that allows us to make use of the hardware. If deactivating OnStar requires a modification to the car's software, I can definitely see how it could effectively be illegal to deactivate. In the world of modern tech, the concept of ownership is practically dead. But I don't know if a modification to the software is actually necessary or if that's…

No need to mess with the software to deactivate these things. Just yank a fuse, disconnect the antenna, or -- worst case -- physically break the support circuitry.

"just" is often quite complicated and expensive to do these days.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#173

Post by ranger_danger » Thu, May 23, 2024, 5:18 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #110

jstanley wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's inside a complicated box that you can't reach.

That complicated box has an antenna. Disconnect (and ideally terminate) the input and no more spying.

That often requires removing the dash and radio, and possibly voiding a warranty or lease agreement.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#174

Post by ranger_danger » Thu, May 23, 2024, 5:21 AM UTC

reaperman wrote: post #155

Zigurd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like OnStar and other systems are on a dedicated fuse. Pulling that fuse would disable remote access to data. This would not disable onboard logging. Real location privacy on a journey would also require stashing your phone and toll box in a shielded bag and avoiding license plate readers.

The interstate also has “traffic counters” which pick up unique bluetooth IDs that are broadcast from each car’s center console infotainment system. There’s a shocking number of ways to track a person in their vehicle before we even get down to the license plate. If most people here on HN don’t know about them, the general public is obviously completely unaware. https://tti.tamu.edu/researcher/now-taking-it-to-the-st…

Now if only this data could be used as an alibi in court.

Sorry your honor, your government's own data proves I could not have been at Jimmy's house where this crime took place.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#175

Post by Animats » Thu, May 23, 2024, 6:54 AM UTC

chucksmash wrote: post #124

jll29 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose you mean the year 1984. Because in the novel "1984", the slogan "Big Brother is watching you." literally contradicts that statement of yours. Wikipedia writes: > The ubiquitous slogan "Big Brother is watching you" serves as a constant reminder that Party members are not entitled to privacy. They are subject to constant surveillance to ensure their ideological purity. This is primarily through omnipresent te…

> The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment.

Yes. That was my point. But then recording got cheap enough to record everything, and now AI is getting good enough to analyze all the data. Orwell didn't see that coming.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#176

Post by M95D » Thu, May 23, 2024, 10:18 AM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #33

zhengiszen wrote: post #6

It will be easier to drone bomb each and every one who is against the US government or its associates. Terrifying

Well, if they were going to do that, there's nothing stopping them from doing it right now when you get home.

They did that with palestinians and there were family casualties besides the intended target. Bombing a car with a smaller bomb would cause less unintendend casualties and be more "acceptable" by the public and press. No more dead children pictures.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#177

Post by M95D » Thu, May 23, 2024, 10:22 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #117

neuralRiot wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a nice utopia but any uncontrolled power is ripe fo abuse, should cops be allowed to kick your door and search your home at any time because they think you’re a criminal? The previous is possible but not when a cop thinks it but a judge. Personally i’d live in a slightly insecure society rather than in a slightly more opressive.

> That’s a nice utopia but any uncontrolled power is ripe for abuse Agreed. In the current status quo, it is abused by car owners who get away with literal murder. > should cops be allowed to kick your door and search your home at any time because they think you’re a criminal? No, but my home is my private space; I'm not driving my home down a shared road. Compare and contrast the relatively lax requirements to get a…

> Compare and contrast the relatively lax requirements to get a driver's license with the incredibly stringent rules around getting a pilot's license

And what is your argument? We should let the surveilance replace the driver exam? As in "you didn't speed this month, we'll let you keep your license" ?

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#178

Post by konschubert » Thu, May 23, 2024, 10:32 AM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #9

Your location isn't that big a deal. They can easily get that from License Plate Readers. What will be interesting, is if they ever use the data to give you tickets. I know that there was a discussion of a plan to use the New Jersey Turnpike tollbooths/EZ-Pass to judge speed between two points, and mail you a ticket. I don't think it ever made it out of the starting gate.

Which is a great idea btw. Makes sure that people follow the speed limit over longer stretches and not just where they expect a camera.

Norway does this a lot, the Netherlands too I think. Germany saw a significant reduction of accident rates in a trial project.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#179

Post by AlgorithmicTime » Thu, May 23, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

alright2565 wrote: post #25

AlgorithmicTime wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the entire population of New Jersey would revolt. Everyone's doing a minimum of 10 over unless there's traffic.

I don't think this sort of casual lawbreaking is good for society. The law should either be changed or always enforced, rather than creating issues with (especially racially) selective enforcement and normalizing this 10-over behavior for city streets where it can easily be life-and-death for folks outside of cars.

[dead]

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#180

Post by chucksta » Thu, May 23, 2024, 1:27 PM UTC

alright2565 wrote: post #25

AlgorithmicTime wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally the entire population of New Jersey would revolt. Everyone's doing a minimum of 10 over unless there's traffic.

I don't think this sort of casual lawbreaking is good for society. The law should either be changed or always enforced, rather than creating issues with (especially racially) selective enforcement and normalizing this 10-over behavior for city streets where it can easily be life-and-death for folks outside of cars.

Maybe in an ideal world but in my area the city can barely keep up with things like basic infrastructure maintenance and trash. Don't think there is a lot of room for things like foresight.

Also have a little issue with things like speeding laws and the police not even following them. I was almost hit by a cop blowing a stop sign literally yesterday.