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One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

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Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#331

Post by carlosjobim »

hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #254
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what happens. Because of automation, the amount of labor needed to do all the work that was done in the 19th century is now a low single digit percentage of the population, and yet the unemployment rate is low. The actual problem is artificial scarcity, not automation. A robot that can build housing cheaper than humans is great. A law that restricts new housing from being built so young people can't a…

We need to find more work for people to do and make it easier to start businesses.

Workers are already at an extremely high level of productivity compared to any other time in history. The problem is what they get in exchange for their labour, and that is a question of monetary policy and how inflationary money enters the economy (it's through real estate).

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#332

Post by elevatedastalt »

michael9423 wrote: post #182
atleastoptimal wrote: post #129

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed. The entire system is designed to drain as much val…

You are confusing the "productivity" of labor with the market value of the labor.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#333

Post by atleastoptimal »

muffinman26 wrote: post #285
atleastoptimal wrote: post #129

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

Isn't it mid-skilled desk jobs that are becoming worth less and less? You can't automate a lot of tasks firefighters do. You need someone to actually show up in-person, in an area where there might be things that interfere with electronics. Automation in cleaning or cooking is pretty minimal. I don't see computers replacing chefs at any of the restaurants in town. We have roombas, but they aren't even particularly go…

You can't yet, but with robots you will be able to.

Once humanoids are good enough nobody will be, or rightfully want to be a firefighter. Even without AGI, teleoperation could be enough. However once AI is good enough that you don't need a human to operate it then there's no reason to hire a human for any step in the process.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#334

Post by bloppe »

hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #206
michael9423 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed. The entire system is designed to drain as much val…

No. You're forgetting that there is a finite amount of work needed and so orders-of-magnitude fewer people are required. Also, the average real purchasing power in America has been declining for a very long time and cannot afford goods and services except through taking on debt.

The average real purchasing power in America has been increasing since at least 2010: https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-purchasi...

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#335

Post by mensetmanusman »

michael9423 wrote: post #182
atleastoptimal wrote: post #129

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed. The entire system is designed to drain as much val…

Exactly. Just correct the % gains in productivity terms to those from 1969 and the average worker would be making 6 figures right now.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#336

Post by mensetmanusman »

hi-v-rocknroll wrote: post #206
michael9423 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed. The entire system is designed to drain as much val…

No. You're forgetting that there is a finite amount of work needed and so orders-of-magnitude fewer people are required. Also, the average real purchasing power in America has been declining for a very long time and cannot afford goods and services except through taking on debt.

Work feeds in to quality of life, quality of life is unbounded. If we had nuclear power plants in every town we could have nearly anything we could imagine.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#337

Post by jmward01 »

I think an issue here is pointing out Amazon. A corporation should take every inch of the law available to them, but no more. They are only evil if they then lobby to make things worse. Amazon workers needing assistance is not an issue with amazon, it is an issue with us ('us' being the US). We make it allowable to create a job that doesn't cover the minimums. 'part time' allows benefits to be slashed. 'gig' allows even more to be taken. Every job should have a living wage with usable health benefits and a path to retirement. Every job that doesn't do this, inevitably, is being subsidized by the tax payer and I for one don't want to pay it any more. There should be laws that heavily tax workplaces that don't meet the minimum standards in order to pay for the programs their workers are forced to use to survive.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#338

Post by southernplaces7 »

simonsarris wrote: post #171
atleastoptimal wrote: post #129

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

> At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. That is nonsense. In the highly automated USA labor commands an extremely high wage relative to highly non-automated countries (or almost any country, for that matter). Compare low-skilled comp in the US to somewhere like India, or even Japan - which has a lot less automation in shops and offices than you…

It's impressive how many otherwise apparently intelligent people here comment to state as facts what are really their entirely made up opinions growing from some pet dogma. Even when a statement could be debunked with a minimum of consideration (such as in this example) it gets put forth as if it were a sophisticated truth.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#339

Post by carlosjobim »

abfan1127 wrote: post #260
michael9423 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed. The entire system is designed to drain as much val…

how have the shareholders siphoned off money? dividends? Has amazon ever paid a dividend? does capital investment provide no value? If "shareholders" suddenly sold the stock, would the workers dump money into the organization to keep it afloat? There are a whole host of logical fallacies here.

> If "shareholders" suddenly sold the stock, would the workers dump money into the organization to keep it afloat?

Mature businesses don't make money by selling shares, they make money by selling products and services that the workers make. Share value is not of that huge importance.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#340

Post by gregw2 »

vidarh wrote: post #276
no_wizard wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you instead capped executive compensation to a ratio, say 1:25 pegged against the lowest wage earner in the company? e.g., you can only be compensated (meaning stock options inclusive) 25 times what your lowest paid employee is paid. Would this naturally raise the floor at companies as executives want to increase their own compensation? I remember an idea like this being floated 15 years ago or so and on the…

The biggest challenge is to prevent companies from just far more aggressively outsourcing. E.g. you get your CEO on contract from YourBrandCEOs'r'us, where he is paid 1x the salary of the lowest paid employee.

Interesting thought, but if one is legislating a wage ratio, one can also outlaw outsourcing executive functions/positions above a certain level, no?
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