Earlier quoted context omitted.
While I see your point from my human perspective, what we call logic is directly dependent on the product of the system it emerges from, meaning our brains are inherently limited, hence cannot be trusted. Cogito, ergo sum is a meaningless statement in this context. Take quantum mechanics for example. Makes all our logic go away.
> our brains are inherently limited, hence cannot be trusted. Yeah I agree with this in general. When it comes to logic though, it is hard to see how for instance the law of the excluded middle could be wrong. But then that may be just the limited brain talking :) > Cogito, ergo sum is a meaningless statement in this context. Not sure how. The fact that I exist is irrefutable. Everything else could be just a dream, s…
Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
71–80 of 84 posts
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm going to skip unnecessary stuff and: > What I'm saying is that the relationship is not a causal relationship, in which the density decrease causes the volume increase. It is just a relationship that is enforced by the overall relationship between the spacetime geometry and the stress-energy tensor. I'm not even sure why focus on casuality of the event. I'm more interested in whether that stress-energy tensor is a…
> I'm not even sure why focus on casuality of the event. Because your original question made it seem like you were thinking of the density decrease caused the volume increase. If you understand that that's not how it works, that's good. > Can we imagine a noticeable area of space suddently becoming empty and devoid of matter Note that this can't happen except by matter flowing out of the area. The matter can't just d…
That's exactly what I've feared. You just spent writing a full page of text how it takes several decades to understand the theory, then I ask a simplest of questions about it, one that any bright primary schooler will come up - and the understanding immediately implodes on itself because the answer is simply not there. All of these decades of studying led to a model that barely supports itself but cannot hold even lightest useful load.
Imagine how a person will study mechanical springs for several decades, then you ask them what happens if you add some load to the spring currently hanging idle, only to hear that it's an "open area of research". But it would probably go up. Something surely would.
I understand the idea of local conservation. Imagine an empty region of space where there's just light, and neutrinos, and some dust. Some time passed and some of that light (and neutrinos) lost energy due to red shift. Where did that energy went, stress-tensor or not? Where's the $100? Whose pocket does it line? What I'm hearing from you is "it can't go nowhere so it went somewhere" but that's not good enough. I suspected that already.
It can be that it's the same $100, they just worth much less than when they were printed because of all the other money which were in circulation between then and now. But that still needs to be described to the point.
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
It seems wrong-headed that even the hint of a Creator requires turning theories into pretzels to remove that hint even when it's not proof. The "problem" of fine-tuning isn't really a problem. Why that value? We just don't know yet. Maybe God set it. Maybe we're part of an infinitely large cosmos where our false vacuum has these parameters, and others don't (statistical multiverse / baby universe models). We just don…
You do realize that a creator hypothesis turns all theories to quite a bit more than just pretzels, and raises a lot more questions than it answers?
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not quite. I don't ascribe completely to the notion that we can't figure stuff out. But we do need to be careful about assuming that things like 3d topology (aka "inside", "outside", when the mathematical spaces we're looking might have no equivalent concept), cause/effect -- or even the spatial dimensions themselves -- are fundamental. Particularly when we're talking about black holes. It's hard, because our brains…
The thing is, I'm not sure how much an actor emerging from a system can learn about the system. Not saying we can't, 'cause I don't know, nobody does. It's just intriguing in it's own way.
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#75What would the dark energy value weakening do to something like Penrose's Conformal Cyclic Cosmology? Seems like it should falsify that idea, as C3 depended on a point where there was nothing left but photons that could never meet causing the end of time and a boundary for another big bang. (If my impression is correct.)
Anyhow, the absence of strong dark energy makes things very easy for Penrose for the general concept of a cyclical universe. If gravity wins against dark energy, then a big crunch is easy, following which a new cycle starts. If instead gravity stays balanced with dark energy, then black holes slowly evaporate into photons anyway, preserving C3.
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing is, I'm not sure how much an actor emerging from a system can learn about the system. Not saying we can't, 'cause I don't know, nobody does. It's just intriguing in it's own way.
Some of the most beautiful moments in science - for me, anyway - come about when there's a refresh on perspective. You'll have something like the ptolemaic system, or phlogiston, or the luminiferous ether, and a tiny push in perception reveals a bigger picture, a deeper understanding. That push is often subtle, but incontrovertible. Modern cosmology really feels like it's on the cusp of something like that today - pe…
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#77The premise comes off as a bit of a surprise to me. My understanding had always been that physicists have not reached any majority agreement on which of the outcomes was likely, precisely because of the lack of understanding of the exact nature of dark energy.
Years it was said that we were going to end up with the Big Crunch. Then in the past decade or two, it was said that we’d end up with a heat death. Now it seems like we’re heading away from that direction. Naturally, if you were immersed in the actual research, I’m sure the question would have seemed a lot more unsolved than it was presented. But it wasn’t just presented this way by pop science books; even scientists…
It seems an easy bet to handicap that the chance what we know right now happens to be correct to basically be zero.
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
> our brains are inherently limited, hence cannot be trusted. Yeah I agree with this in general. When it comes to logic though, it is hard to see how for instance the law of the excluded middle could be wrong. But then that may be just the limited brain talking :) > Cogito, ergo sum is a meaningless statement in this context. Not sure how. The fact that I exist is irrefutable. Everything else could be just a dream, s…
We invented the concept of right and wrong, for a reason. Or true and false, same thing. It's useful. The experience of my own existence - and the assumed irrefutability of it - is based on features beyond my control. How do I make my heart beat? No idea. I just do. Is logic itself, like science, not based on observations? Anyway, nice conversation!
Ah morally that's correct. But in general, such thinking is giving up too much.
Capital T Truth exists irrespective of humans, no? For instance, Quantum Mechanics was True before it was discovered, and would have remained True whether or not there were ever any humans to investigate it. The same for whatever base reality is.
> The experience of my own existence - and the assumed irrefutability of it - is based on features beyond my control. How do I make my heart beat?
The way we experience it, sure. The fact that we experience something, be it a true reality or an illusion in a matrix, is irrefutable. That's exactly "what cogito, ergo sum" [0] is talking about. In fact, thinking along these lines is what led Descartes to come up with this principle. In a world of uncertainty where we cannot even trust our own senses, how can we arrive at any Truth? And he realized: everything else we think and experience could be false, but the fact that I am something that is able to think and exist is itself a truth that no one can take away! It's history is pretty interesting.
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm not even sure why focus on casuality of the event. Because your original question made it seem like you were thinking of the density decrease caused the volume increase. If you understand that that's not how it works, that's good. > Can we imagine a noticeable area of space suddently becoming empty and devoid of matter Note that this can't happen except by matter flowing out of the area. The matter can't just d…
> However, this is still an open area of research That's exactly what I've feared. You just spent writing a full page of text how it takes several decades to understand the theory, then I ask a simplest of questions about it, one that any bright primary schooler will come up - and the understanding immediately implodes on itself because the answer is simply not there. All of these decades of studying led to a model t…
No, the answer is there, but it's not simple. Again, you want a quick sound bite: yes or no to your question. And reality is not like that. Reality is not simple sound bites. Reality is complicated and it takes work to figure out what is really going on. That's why it takes years or decades to get a real understanding of any useful model of reality on the scale of the universe. That's why it takes years or decades to do research to expand the boundaries of our knowledge. You want me to just bypass all that and give you a simple answer. Sorry, no. There isn't one. That's not because scientists are stupid or because our models don't work. It's because you don't want to accept the actual cost of understanding them.
> Imagine how a person will study mechanical springs for several decades
But nobody does that. Physics students learn a simple model of how mechanical springs work in a lecture or two. Mechanical engineers learn more detailed models that work for things like designing car suspensions in maybe a semester. People might certainly work with mechanical springs for decades, but they won't spend that whole time just getting an understanding of our best current model of them. They will spend most of that time using the model that that already understand.
But the whole universe is not a mechanical spring. And learning our best current model of the whole universe is a lot harder than learning our best current model of a mechanical spring. So you are simply being unrealistic if you expect someone to explain the whole universe to you with the same amount of effort it would take to explain a mechanical spring.
> I understand the idea of local conservation.
No, you don't. You may think you do, but if you did, you would not even have to ask:
> Imagine an empty region of space where there's just light, and neutrinos, and some dust. Some time passed and some of that light (and neutrinos) lost energy due to red shift. Where did that energy went, stress-tensor or not?
Local conservation says no stress-energy went anywhere. The redshift due to the universe's expansion does not lose any stress-energy. Stress-energy is conserved.
A better question would be, if stress-energy is locally conserved, why is there a redshift as the universe expands? And the answer to that is that the local conservation law does not say the energy density stays the same. It says that stress-energy is not created or destroyed. But "stress-energy" is not the same as energy density. The density of stress-energy, for matter (or radiation, since you asked about light) is the same with the scale factor slightly smaller and the energy density slightly higher, as with the scale factor slightly larger and the energy density slightly smaller. That's what the equations tell us. (For dark energy, as I've said, they tell us that the energy density does stay the same as the universe expands. But that's only true for dark energy.) All of these statements are consequences of the Friedmann equations, or, if you want to look at it that way, of the relationship that is enforced by those equations between stress-energy and spacetime geometry.
That's about the best I can do at describing what the equations say in ordinary language. There's a reason why physicists do physics with math: because math is a much better tool for the job. I've already told you what math to look up if you want more information.
Re: Physicists now question the fate of the Universe
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
You do realize that a creator hypothesis turns all theories to quite a bit more than just pretzels, and raises a lot more questions than it answers?
I made no argument in favor of the creator hypothesis. I'm making an argument against fearing it. The creator hypothesis will take care of itself if we just attend to the science and not to "taste."