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Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

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Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#81

Post by placatedmayhem »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #58
akouri wrote: post #5

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic. If you have a conversation at home, either your "smart" TV, fridge, or Google Home / Alexa is listening. Now, cars are just becoming tablets on wheels. In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. Ther…

Tesla does not divulge your location to law enforcement without a warrant, and stands out amongst other automakers who simply hand it over. They also were one of few automakers who wasn't selling your data to LexisNexis Risk Solutions for insurance pricing. https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://www.ft…

On the other hand, Tesla has some notably, egregious incidents, including the reportedly-regular sharing of videos on internal messaging until at least 2022.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens...

Mozilla report has more:

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/tesla/

It's troubling that basically every major auto maker has some flavor of privacy invasive tech that can't be turned off.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#82

Post by toomuchtodo »

dietr1ch wrote: post #77
toomuchtodo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla does not divulge your location to law enforcement without a warrant, and stands out amongst other automakers who simply hand it over. They also were one of few automakers who wasn't selling your data to LexisNexis Risk Solutions for insurance pricing. https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://www.ft…

my bike manufacturer does not divulge my location either, but in a much easier to trust way and without a possibility for circumvention. Cars knowing their own location can be really useful, but why does the manufacturer need to know about it? and to begin with, why are they allowed to know about it?

I can only speak to Tesla; they can display the location of my vehicles in the mobile app, I can log my vehicle location constantly with a third party app (Teslascope, Tessie, etc), and other similar location based functionality. I want this functionality, I am willing to opt in to it, but I still expect robust controls (both internal and external) around the data they store and process. I understand some people may wish to opt out; they should be provided the option to do so, along with an acknowledged loss in capabilities that rely on those location services. Protect the consumer's choice and their data.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#83

Post by eastbound »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #33
zhengiszen wrote: post #6

It will be easier to drone bomb each and every one who is against the US government or its associates. Terrifying

Well, if they were going to do that, there's nothing stopping them from doing it right now when you get home.

In yesterday’s cars, the brakes were already piloted via electronics. It was already possible for the infotainment system to saturate the CAN bus which drives the brakes.

If they any country’s secret service hasn’t used it to kill a political opponent in a “sad car crash”, then they’re stupid.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#84

Post by bombcar »

moneywoes wrote: post #56
apazzolini wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone steals my car, I hope it's never recovered so I can get the insurance payout. Who knows how the thief drove it (e.g. put it in neutral and floored it for 10 minutes) and what unseen damage lurks.

dont you have to pay A huge deductible?

Depends on what your insurance policy says.

For many people, even though insurance is just supposed to "make you whole" they end up with a better result after a payout, even with a $500 deductible or whatever.

Often actual theft is deductible-free.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#85

Post by toomuchtodo »

placatedmayhem wrote: post #81
toomuchtodo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla does not divulge your location to law enforcement without a warrant, and stands out amongst other automakers who simply hand it over. They also were one of few automakers who wasn't selling your data to LexisNexis Risk Solutions for insurance pricing. https://www.tesla.com/legal/privacy https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/technology/carmakers-driv... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39666976 https://www.ft…

On the other hand, Tesla has some notably, egregious incidents, including the reportedly-regular sharing of videos on internal messaging until at least 2022. https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens... Mozilla report has more: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/tesla/ It's troubling that basically every major auto maker has some flavor of privacy invasive tech that can't be turne…

I'm not going to boil the ocean in a single thread, but recognize that there is nuance, lots of work ahead, and that consumer rights must be robust with punitive costs for willful negligence. There will always be control failures. If you're fine losing the functionality, pull the RF on your Tesla until laws catch up. I have managed the risk within my threat model, and accept the remaining risk. If all else fails, I will complain loudly to regulators and my representatives when needed to seek recourse, while also continuing to apply pressure as a citizen activist to keep moving towards better statute and regulatory rules around consumer data, data privacy, and so forth.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#86

Post by bombcar »

hiatus wrote: post #69
patmcc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit (what the cops told you, to be clear, not what you're saying. I'm sure they did tell you they don't have a way to track it). The cops could absolutely track it. License plate readers are built into most cop cars and parking enforcement vehicles, they could call the carmaker, they could view cctv from the area, whatever. If it was something they actually cared about - like one of their cars, or a cop killer,…

> The cops could absolutely track it. License plate readers are built into most cop cars and parking enforcement vehicles, they could call the carmaker, they could view cctv from the area, whatever. Maybe where you live that's true. Try going somewhere in upstate NY, or deep in West Virginia. The tracking technology is unevenly distributed.

And it depends on why it was stolen. Joy ride? It'll turn up.

Destined for a chop shop? Even if they do track it all they'd see is it leaving the city, never to be seen again.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#87

Post by JohnFen »

exe34 wrote: post #51
JohnFen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to mess with the software to deactivate these things. Just yank a fuse, disconnect the antenna, or -- worst case -- physically break the support circuitry.

the issue is that eventually they'll just make the car not start without it. it's like your inkjet printer refusing to print black and white because it's run out of yellow.

Eventually isn't now, though. We'll have to cross that bridge when it happens.

Personally, the inclusion of surveillance as a standard feature in cars means that I won't buy cars made so recently. It's easier to do that than to worry about disabling stuff. If that becomes impossible for some reason, I suppose that my driving days are over.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#88

Post by adamomada »

akouri wrote: post #5

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic. If you have a conversation at home, either your "smart" TV, fridge, or Google Home / Alexa is listening. Now, cars are just becoming tablets on wheels. In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. Ther…

What I hope for is what amazon has done with the mic controls on a few devices (fire tv cube, echo, others?) where a teardown has proven that the hardware button to disable the mic physically disables the mic from possibly working while the light is on, and additionally makes it impossible for the software to enable it (until power cycle, where they have the firmware re-set it during boot and can verify it by seeing the light on again)

Making this kind of circuit mandatory and hopefully a default that you have to switch on is the solution to keep both groups happy.

I can dig up the article that shows the schematic if anyone needs evidence

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#89

Post by JohnFen »

crmd wrote: post #45
jandrese wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's illegal about removing the fuse for the OnStar system from your own car? Certainly the doctrine of first sale applies here?

On late model Toyotas, pulling the fuse for the DCM (Data Communication Module - component that sends nonconsensual telemetry back to Toyota) also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker. There is a procedure to disable the DCM and restore at least the speaker, but it involves partial disassembly of the dashboard.

> also disables the car's bluetooth microphone and front right speaker.

That seems like a really small price to pay, honestly. I'd just install an aftermarket stereo and call it a day.

Although I understand if others think that price is too hefty. We all decide for ourselves what we're willing to put up with.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#90

Post by nehal3m »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #52

These articles are redundant and tiring. Police have never needed a warrant if the party with possession of the data willingly provides it.

Shitty situations should be remedied. This is most definitely a shitty situation. To effect change we need to keep the pressure up and keep calling out shitty behavior. That is indeed redundant and tiring but it must be done.
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