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Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

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Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#61

Post by eldaisfish »

kotaKat wrote: post #14
akouri wrote: post #5

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic. If you have a conversation at home, either your "smart" TV, fridge, or Google Home / Alexa is listening. Now, cars are just becoming tablets on wheels. In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. Ther…

> I have to assume that my vehicle will collect data that could be used against me in court. They always have, for a long time. Exploring event data recorders is an interesting art to get into and put together how crashes play out, sensor-by-sensor. To play along at home: https://crashdatagroup.com/ -- amusingly, one of the referrals mentioned on the page was essentially "Someone hit my parked car and then claimed I…

This mischaracterises the point.

The scale at which data collection now happens is unprecedented. The fact that data collection and sharing is now a continuous process is unprecedented.

claiming that this has always been the case is disingenuous.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#62

Post by HeatrayEnjoyer »

PaulHoule wrote: post #57
ru552 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not illegal, it's just that it doesn't allow it in the UI. Who do you call to have that service disabled? No one knows. The best you can do is talk to someone and have the auto renewal turned off. That doesn't turn off the existing service until the renewal period hits though.

There's got to be a fuse to pull.

IIRC in some vehicles it is part of the ECM and can't be disabled without also effectively disabling the entire engine.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#63

Post by lupusreal »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #52

These articles are redundant and tiring. Police have never needed a warrant if the party with possession of the data willingly provides it.

That's not really true in the general case though. Your landlord could willingly give the police the information needed to cut a spare key to your apartment but that wouldn't make it legal for the police to search your shit without a warrant. And they're not supposed to be able to get your phone records by simply sweet talking the phone company, nor read your mail by finding a cooperative postmaster. This kind of shit is supposed to require a warrant.

> tiring

Drink a coffee or something, the articles will continue until there is either reform or a suspension of the first ammendment.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#64

Post by HeatrayEnjoyer »

hiatus wrote: post #59
exe34 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the issue is that eventually they'll just make the car not start without it. it's like your inkjet printer refusing to print black and white because it's run out of yellow.

That sounds like it would have profound safety implications.

How so?

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#65

Post by hiatus »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #52

These articles are redundant and tiring. Police have never needed a warrant if the party with possession of the data willingly provides it.

The news here is that carmakers are willingly providing that data. That is useful from a consumer perspective.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#66

Post by [deleted] »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #27
moduspol wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lot more precise data, and getting it from private companies without a warrant makes the bar potentially quite low. My concern is more that it's ripe for parallel construction in cases that otherwise wouldn't make it out of the gate.

From what I understand, LPRs are very precise; especially the car-mounted ones that I see around here. The biggest issue with LPRs, is the private corporations that run the infrastructure, sell the data to non-law enforcement people. Basically, license plates were designed to give authorities the ability to match the car with an owner, and are designed to be public, but the matching data is supposed to be behind a lo…

[deleted]

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#67

Post by bombcar »

mc32 wrote: post #23
akouri wrote: post #5

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic. If you have a conversation at home, either your "smart" TV, fridge, or Google Home / Alexa is listening. Now, cars are just becoming tablets on wheels. In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. Ther…

One option that’s not great, is to follow the Amish —though the feds like irritating them from time to time. Maybe another is Indian lands, but who knows, they will likely find ways around that too.

What you have to do is stay just under the radar without looking like you're staying under the radar.

The Amish stand out. But mc32 driving a 1998 Volvo with no cell phone does not stand out.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#68

Post by moduspol »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #27
moduspol wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a lot more precise data, and getting it from private companies without a warrant makes the bar potentially quite low. My concern is more that it's ripe for parallel construction in cases that otherwise wouldn't make it out of the gate.

From what I understand, LPRs are very precise; especially the car-mounted ones that I see around here. The biggest issue with LPRs, is the private corporations that run the infrastructure, sell the data to non-law enforcement people. Basically, license plates were designed to give authorities the ability to match the car with an owner, and are designed to be public, but the matching data is supposed to be behind a lo…

A LPR will tell you when a car was at a specific spot, but it won't tell you where a car is at all times. The difference may be inconsequential in dense urban areas, but it's not where I live.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#69

Post by hiatus »

patmcc wrote: post #40
cranberryturkey wrote: post #2

My car was stolen a year ago. If it wasn’t for the iPhone app tracker I had I never would have gotten it back. Police didn’t have any way to track it.

Bullshit (what the cops told you, to be clear, not what you're saying. I'm sure they did tell you they don't have a way to track it). The cops could absolutely track it. License plate readers are built into most cop cars and parking enforcement vehicles, they could call the carmaker, they could view cctv from the area, whatever. If it was something they actually cared about - like one of their cars, or a cop killer,…

> The cops could absolutely track it. License plate readers are built into most cop cars and parking enforcement vehicles, they could call the carmaker, they could view cctv from the area, whatever.

Maybe where you live that's true. Try going somewhere in upstate NY, or deep in West Virginia. The tracking technology is unevenly distributed.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#70

Post by shadowgovt »

patmcc wrote: post #40
cranberryturkey wrote: post #2

My car was stolen a year ago. If it wasn’t for the iPhone app tracker I had I never would have gotten it back. Police didn’t have any way to track it.

Bullshit (what the cops told you, to be clear, not what you're saying. I'm sure they did tell you they don't have a way to track it). The cops could absolutely track it. License plate readers are built into most cop cars and parking enforcement vehicles, they could call the carmaker, they could view cctv from the area, whatever. If it was something they actually cared about - like one of their cars, or a cop killer,…

And because there's too much friction to do so, since much of the data they'd need to sift to execute on your described scenario would involve multiple distinct warrants for multiple distinct data sources.

... now, if the data were, say, aggregated somewhere with low friction to police access...

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