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One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

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Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#181
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Warehouse positions all pay well above minimum wage, in every state. They also offer benefits. Concluding Amazon isn’t paying enough, because a large portion of their workforce qualifies for food stamps, is the wrong conclusion.

If you knew someone working at an Amazon Warehouse position who needed to use government benefits to get by, would you consider them "well" or even "fairly" paid?

What is your null hypothesis here? Would they be better off if Amazon moved their warehouse to another state or country?

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#182

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed.

The entire system is designed to drain as much value out of hardworking people into the pockets of those who do not work, but simply own shares.

Being able to buy and sell shares is not problematic per se, but there should be rules in place that give all workers of a publicly traded company better access to owning parts of said company. In other words, all workers of a rich company should be (relatively spoken) rich, corresponding to the value they provided to the company.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#183
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Warehouse positions all pay well above minimum wage, in every state. They also offer benefits. Concluding Amazon isn’t paying enough, because a large portion of their workforce qualifies for food stamps, is the wrong conclusion.

If you knew someone working at an Amazon Warehouse position who needed to use government benefits to get by, would you consider them "well" or even "fairly" paid?

The point is that amazon isn't doing anything nefarious in paying people minimum wage

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#184

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

I don't think this is strictly true. I think that Amazon could automate more of their order fulfillment if they were willing to invest in that. I also think that for the jobs that do need humans, they could afford health insurance (really not insurance these days, just a way of paying for some healthcare pre-tax) and to fully-fund the employees 401(k) or similar. Like, nobody shops on Amazon because they have the best price. If some other company starts doing same-day delivery for a wide variety of products, and the employees are treated well, and it costs $5 more per package... who cares? I'd switch to them overnight.

Honestly, Amazon is kind of the snake that's eating it's own tail. Nobody feels good about buying from Amazon anymore. The customer service treats you like crap. The employees don't do a good job because they'd be fired if they did. The time is right for them to disappear overnight. I already don't trust them for anything expensive; if I'm ordering electronics, I get it through B&H, who makes some minimal amount of effort to ensure that you don't get a brick instead of a camera. Slowly but surely, the rest of the world is chipping away at their empire. "You have to indirectly torture one of our employees to get your thingamajig," isn't helping. I really think that if we fast-forward 20 years, we'll see that "no bathroom breaks, pee in a bottle" didn't make society much richer. (Of course, none of this matters. The early execs are out and incomprehensibly wealthy. I feel bad for the people that saw that and joined late, but will never achieve their goals in that area.)

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The correct comparison would be of the marginal cost of eligibility testing (both in terms of false positives and false negatives) vs the marginal cost of fraud. There is a much better way to do this, because the way we do it is entirely asinine. On the one hand we say that people who make more money should pay higher marginal tax rates, and set marginal rates on lower income people to low or zero rates. On the oth…

I love the idea of a UBI, but there is a real risk of the UBI being impacted like the minimum wage. When initially passed it's set to a barely reasonable level, and then not adjusted for decades. Not saying it can't be solved, tie it to inflation or CPI, but I doubt that could pass.

This has nothing to do with a UBI. What happens if the government doesn't raise the benefits amount for a food stamp program? In both cases you can either index the amount to inflation or you have the same concern, so it doesn't matter which one you use and isn't a reason not to use a UBI.

If anything it's a reason to use it, because raising the amount that everybody universally gets would be easier to pass when there are more beneficiaries. Nobody cares about the minimum wage because hardly anybody actually makes minimum wage, whereas around half (and plausibly a slight majority) of the population would be a net beneficiary with a UBI.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#186
Approximate nationwide list from 2020 produced by GAO:

Walmart

McDonald’s

FedEx

Amazon

Dollar General

Kroger

Dollar Tree, Inc.

Safeway

Waffle House

Burger King

Goodwill

Sonic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/18/food-stam...

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-45

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#187

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

[flagged]

Or is the US government too incompetent to keep them out? Are not the nine most terrifying words in the English language: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help?

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#188

If a corporation is making strong profits and its workforce is on poverty level incomes and relying on public financial support to survive, kind of feels like it makes sense for the government to claw back those profits in higher taxation. Notion being that the corporation that is so severely under paying its work force isn't genuinely profitable and is falsely portraying itself as so.

I think this is basically it.

A lot of discussions of inequality in the US eventually end up as discussions of nominal equalness, like the problem is about making sure everyone gets paid the same amount. What the real problem is probably is more like certain beneficiaries are overvalued and overpaid, either through rent seeking, structural problems, deception, or something else, and/or the others are underpaid, and/or certain costs of labor are being unpaid.

If you have a highly profitable business and basic employee needs aren't being met by the employer's compensation, it's sort of necessarily a sign that certain costs of labor -- food, shelter, and healthcare for the workers -- aren't being paid when they could be.

It's like if I hired a carpenter to redo cabinetry in my house, and then decided I wouldn't pay for the materials because it wasn't something the carpenter themselves produced. The food and health of the workers is something the employer is benefiting from that is necessary to the labor, and they're just assuming that the workers are getting it from elsewhere.

I think the tendency for "greater equalness" to often seem like a goal in itself is kind of an indirect consequence of the fact that often when you account for all the hidden unpaid costs and overvaluations and undervaluations, employees of a company or institution probably should be more equal than they often are.

It's strange that we accept all these economic notions of price fixing, fraud, theft, and over and undervaluation when it comes to physical goods, but when it comes to labor and employer and employee compensation we just kind of pretend it's all perfect markets, with perfectly rational actors and no structural problems.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#189

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

[flagged]

The US created that problem for itself, it can deal with it. Don't ruin others and you won't have refugees.

Re: One-third of Amazon warehouse workers are on food stamps or Medicaid

#190

Here's the thing. This is going to happen to everyone, as in, no person will be valuable enough via the contribution of their labor to survive without subsidies. At the level of automation we've reached in society, low-skilled labor is worth, per hour, a very small amount. As AI and automation improve, the majority of people will have negligible economic utility. The only way around this is to let those people starve…

Actually, it's the opposite. At the level of automation we've reached, labor is worth, per hour, way more than 100 years ago. The problem is just that this value is siphoned off by shareholders who do not have to work to receive the monetary value that should go to the worker. So the issue is simply in how corporations are set up and how the stock market is designed. The entire system is designed to drain as much val…

And I would say that developed western nations, including the USA, have done a pretty good job of providing subsidies and benefits for low skilled workers, so they can get on the lowest rung of the totem pole and contribute to society without starving. We specifically have food stamps, the EITC, welfare, child tax credit, housing vouchers, and so on specifically so they can provide valuable labor to society (and minimum wage is definitely a cost to businesses) and not starve.
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