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Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

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11–20 of 198 posts

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#11
post #5

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic. If you have a conversation at home, either your "smart" TV, fridge, or Google Home / Alexa is listening. Now, cars are just becoming tablets on wheels. In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. Ther…

[deleted]

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#12
post #4

There is a growing number of cases where the salesperson will activate OnStar (or a non-GM equivalent) without asking or telling the buyer about it. As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. Of course if you're driving in a city the proliferation of ALPRs is so pervasive that your movements are being tracked in real-time even if you're driving a 1958 Ford…

What's illegal about removing the fuse for the OnStar system from your own car? Certainly the doctrine of first sale applies here?

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#13

Your location isn't that big a deal. They can easily get that from License Plate Readers. What will be interesting, is if they ever use the data to give you tickets. I know that there was a discussion of a plan to use the New Jersey Turnpike tollbooths/EZ-Pass to judge speed between two points, and mail you a ticket. I don't think it ever made it out of the starting gate.

Literally the entire population of New Jersey would revolt. Everyone's doing a minimum of 10 over unless there's traffic.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#14
post #5

We're entering the age where having private, personal space is becoming almost impossible. If you have a conversation around your phone, you best believe that government actors can tap that mic. If you have a conversation at home, either your "smart" TV, fridge, or Google Home / Alexa is listening. Now, cars are just becoming tablets on wheels. In my Tesla, I am quite literally, being watched every time I drive. Ther…

> I have to assume that my vehicle will collect data that could be used against me in court.

They always have, for a long time. Exploring event data recorders is an interesting art to get into and put together how crashes play out, sensor-by-sensor.

To play along at home: https://crashdatagroup.com/ -- amusingly, one of the referrals mentioned on the page was essentially "Someone hit my parked car and then claimed I was driving it at the time" -- the EDR sounds like it saved them from a fraudulent claim.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#15
post #10
post #4

There is a growing number of cases where the salesperson will activate OnStar (or a non-GM equivalent) without asking or telling the buyer about it. As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. Of course if you're driving in a city the proliferation of ALPRs is so pervasive that your movements are being tracked in real-time even if you're driving a 1958 Ford…

> As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. I'm not aware of any law (in the US) that prohibits you from disabling these things in a vehicle you own. Is it actually illegal?

You own the hardware. But in the modern world we do not own the software that allows us to make use of the hardware. If deactivating OnStar requires a modification to the car's software, I can definitely see how it could effectively be illegal to deactivate. In the world of modern tech, the concept of ownership is practically dead.

But I don't know if a modification to the software is actually necessary or if that's what OP was getting at. Just speculating.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#16

Your location isn't that big a deal. They can easily get that from License Plate Readers. What will be interesting, is if they ever use the data to give you tickets. I know that there was a discussion of a plan to use the New Jersey Turnpike tollbooths/EZ-Pass to judge speed between two points, and mail you a ticket. I don't think it ever made it out of the starting gate.

It's a lot more precise data, and getting it from private companies without a warrant makes the bar potentially quite low.

My concern is more that it's ripe for parallel construction in cases that otherwise wouldn't make it out of the gate.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#17

Your location isn't that big a deal. They can easily get that from License Plate Readers. What will be interesting, is if they ever use the data to give you tickets. I know that there was a discussion of a plan to use the New Jersey Turnpike tollbooths/EZ-Pass to judge speed between two points, and mail you a ticket. I don't think it ever made it out of the starting gate.

I remember hearing that as a kid growing up in the 90s that it purportedly existed.

IIRC the closest thing you get to that on the EZPass system is speeding through a toll plaza when they were still a thing flying through the low speed readers.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#18

Your location isn't that big a deal. They can easily get that from License Plate Readers. What will be interesting, is if they ever use the data to give you tickets. I know that there was a discussion of a plan to use the New Jersey Turnpike tollbooths/EZ-Pass to judge speed between two points, and mail you a ticket. I don't think it ever made it out of the starting gate.

Literally the entire population of New Jersey would revolt. Everyone's doing a minimum of 10 over unless there's traffic.

[deleted]

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#19
post #4

There is a growing number of cases where the salesperson will activate OnStar (or a non-GM equivalent) without asking or telling the buyer about it. As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. Of course if you're driving in a city the proliferation of ALPRs is so pervasive that your movements are being tracked in real-time even if you're driving a 1958 Ford…

It looks like OnStar and other systems are on a dedicated fuse. Pulling that fuse would disable remote access to data. This would not disable onboard logging. Real location privacy on a journey would also require stashing your phone and toll box in a shielded bag and avoiding license plate readers.

Re: Carmakers Will Give Your Location to Police Without a Warrant, Senators Say

#20
post #15
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As far as I know, there is no (legal) way to deactivate OnStar or similar GPS trackers built into cars. I'm not aware of any law (in the US) that prohibits you from disabling these things in a vehicle you own. Is it actually illegal?

You own the hardware. But in the modern world we do not own the software that allows us to make use of the hardware. If deactivating OnStar requires a modification to the car's software, I can definitely see how it could effectively be illegal to deactivate. In the world of modern tech, the concept of ownership is practically dead. But I don't know if a modification to the software is actually necessary or if that's…

But if you own the hardware there's nothing to legally prevent you from severing the power to whatever sensors/hardware onstar is using, no?
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