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Shipbreaking

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Re: Shipbreaking

#171

Post by throwaway2037 »

throw383y8 wrote: post #37
TrackerFF wrote: post #29

One of my previous (job) tasks was to monitor larger vessels, and analyze where they'd end up getting torn apart. Turns out western shipping companies don't like paying western prices for that kind of work, and try to sneak the vessels down to India, Bangladesh, etc. where that kind of work is much cheaper. But with cheaper prices comes a host of issues, from the environmental effects, to human workers actually perfo…

Well, West should stop dumping their garbage to the rest of the world. It is easy to have strict environmental regulations, if they are not enforced, and negative externalities are exported.

"The West". LOL. What makes you think rich countries in the Middle East or East/South East Asia are any different? They are not.

Re: Shipbreaking

#172

Post by mschuster91 »

eru wrote: post #169
mschuster91 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's your evidence for that? Living in a world where I don't have a host of different power bricks in my travel bag any more, where one single Anker dual-port charger is enough to bring with me on vacation and get my stuff charged, and where when I lose my cable I can just walk into any random store and buy one for cheap. > it's already very easy to get charging cables that have multiple heads, for that people th…

> Living in a world where I don't have a host of different power bricks in my travel bag any more, [...] Huh? I don't have to do that, either. I only have different cables, but the power brick is the same.

Yeah because by now it's all USB. I'm old enough to 'member the times where literally everyone had different plugs and voltages.

Re: Shipbreaking

#173

Post by eru »

mschuster91 wrote: post #172
eru wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Living in a world where I don't have a host of different power bricks in my travel bag any more, [...] Huh? I don't have to do that, either. I only have different cables, but the power brick is the same.

Yeah because by now it's all USB. I'm old enough to 'member the times where literally everyone had different plugs and voltages.

Yes, but that standardisation on USB that we have already witnessed came about without any legal mandates, or did it? So it undermines the argument for them.

Re: Shipbreaking

#174

Post by numpad0 »

Retric wrote: post #141
numpad0 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving That's extortion...

I don’t think you understand what that word means. Extortion isn’t simply any negative consequence. A dentist requiring payment before preforming surgery didn’t cause your tooth decay and they have no obligation to help you. Same deal here, someone offering a job is offering the possibility of a mutually beneficial relationship, but that’s as far as it goes.

By that logic it's up to you to die or not from being shot in the face. That's like 18th-19th century or earlier model of world.

> A dentist ... have no obligation to help you.

btw, this is region dependent. Medical services are just businesses in the US, but doctors are obligated to provide emergency cares by law in many regions.

Re: Shipbreaking

#175

Post by fifilura »

eru wrote: post #170
fifilura wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that you can say the same thing about the ships they sail to Bangladesh for breaking up. Sail them to Bangladesh, they are responsible for "recycling", problem solved. The problem is that the place they end up looks like a huge dump where clothes end up to die. And with huge environmental problems. And health problems. I am aware that shipping has less environmental impact, but was it really the intentio…

> I am aware that shipping has less environmental impact, but was it really the intention that the clothes should have the same transportation impact when being "recycled" as when they were first manufactured? The transportation impact is minuscule either way, so I don't think it matters which side is slightly bigger or smaller?

Yeah. I guess you attacked the point that was easiest to refute. (Without adding any actual numbers though.)

For the sake of the discussion, it was a mistake to include it.

Re: Shipbreaking

#176

Post by Retric »

numpad0 wrote: post #174
Retric wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you understand what that word means. Extortion isn’t simply any negative consequence. A dentist requiring payment before preforming surgery didn’t cause your tooth decay and they have no obligation to help you. Same deal here, someone offering a job is offering the possibility of a mutually beneficial relationship, but that’s as far as it goes.

By that logic it's up to you to die or not from being shot in the face. That's like 18th-19th century or earlier model of world. > A dentist ... have no obligation to help you. btw, this is region dependent. Medical services are just businesses in the US, but doctors are obligated to provide emergency cares by law in many regions.

> By that logic it's up to you to die or not from being shot in the face.

No that’s an issue directly caused by a 3rd party. Hunger is imposed not by an individual but by biology.

> doctors are obligated to provide emergency cares by law in many regions.

There’s some confusion around what is the responsibility of an emergency room and individuals, but UK, USA, Canada, Singapore, etc don’t require doctors to act in an emergency. The US requires emergency rooms to protect treatment in an actual emergency but not everything qualifies. https://www.acep.org/life-as-a-physician/ethics--legal/emtal....

Every country is different but few require doctors to act in an Emergency and non for general care, it’s basically a handful of European countries and Australia. Even then it’s a minimal level of treatment.

Re: Shipbreaking

#177

Post by toyg »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #150
Teever wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this law like that?

Europeans don't like the working conditions of shipbreakers in India, and don't like the pollution it creates in India. Europeans can't directly tell the Indians what they can and cannot do. Instead, the parent post is proposing to use the state surveillance app aratus to go after and prosecute the f** out of people that sell ships to India. I said it seems like a lot of work to try to stop someone in another country…

I don't disagree on the overall principle of avoiding the establishment of de-facto extraterritoriality, but it should be said that environmental pollution is not a localized problem. The Earth is a connected system, and what happens in India or China will eventually affect Europe and America (in the form of polluted air/water making its way here, or climate change provoked by emissions), and viceversa.

Environmental issues are inevitably global, and countries should talk about them and find global agreements that are fair and enforced by everyone. We can't just hide behind "my backyard, my rules".

Re: Shipbreaking

#178

Post by toyg »

eru wrote: post #173
mschuster91 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah because by now it's all USB. I'm old enough to 'member the times where literally everyone had different plugs and voltages.

Yes, but that standardisation on USB that we have already witnessed came about without any legal mandates, or did it? So it undermines the argument for them.

Standardization was an option, but it took laws to actually force the inevitable refuseniks (like Apple) to the table.

Re: Shipbreaking

#179

Post by fuzzfactor »

aaroninsf wrote: post #127

My wife and I visited the shipbreaking yards near Chittagong on our honeymoon. It was remarkable. I make field recordings; I was able to do a fair amount of field recording before a nervous foreman invited us to tea, gave us a calendar from the shipbreakers' association, and politely escorted us off the property. Apparently there had been journalists by in months prior doing some investigative journalism into issues…

>Amazing to be where thousands of tons of oil had been in living memory.

On chemical tankers each cargo compartment is "thoroughly" cleaned before accepting its next parcel, and after cleaning somebody goes down the hatch into the dark hold with their explosion-proof flashlight all the way to the bottom to walk around and check it out.

Living memory in this case can be hours to days. Year 'round, port after port on a 24/7 basis.

And it can be a couple dozen tanks per ship.

When you go all around the inside, plus see the condition of the piping, deck, offices, mess, and things like that it all adds up to a fine line between vessels ready for the scrap heap versus ones you know are going to have many voyages ahead of them.

For these depreciating assets after they are fully depreciated.

Re: Shipbreaking

#180

Post by Teever »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #150
Teever wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this law like that?

Europeans don't like the working conditions of shipbreakers in India, and don't like the pollution it creates in India. Europeans can't directly tell the Indians what they can and cannot do. Instead, the parent post is proposing to use the state surveillance app aratus to go after and prosecute the f** out of people that sell ships to India. I said it seems like a lot of work to try to stop someone in another country…

But you know that it's a law to stop people doing something domestically which is exporting a ship.

You know this.

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