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Shipbreaking

edwardburtynsky.com

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Re: Shipbreaking

#141

Post by Retric »

numpad0 wrote: post #138
paxys wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Paying well" is relative. There are lots of industries that are rightly considered exploitative from the western eye, but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving or relying on meager government handouts if they went away.

> but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving That's extortion...

I don’t think you understand what that word means. Extortion isn’t simply any negative consequence.

A dentist requiring payment before preforming surgery didn’t cause your tooth decay and they have no obligation to help you. Same deal here, someone offering a job is offering the possibility of a mutually beneficial relationship, but that’s as far as it goes.

Re: Shipbreaking

#143

Post by ToucanLoucan »

Retric wrote: post #141
numpad0 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving That's extortion...

I don’t think you understand what that word means. Extortion isn’t simply any negative consequence. A dentist requiring payment before preforming surgery didn’t cause your tooth decay and they have no obligation to help you. Same deal here, someone offering a job is offering the possibility of a mutually beneficial relationship, but that’s as far as it goes.

What about when someone invents the concept of private property ownership, claims all the food as his own, hires a bunch of people by paying them with the food he has declared he owns to guard that food, and then demands payment for you to eat that food to survive?

Maybe extortion isn't the right word, but it's certainly not voluntary exchange either.

Re: Shipbreaking

#144

Post by efitz »

Lots of companies do not want to deal with the cleanup of capital-intensive projects that have outlived their usefulness. For example, windmills for power. Now governments are starting to require bonds for disassembly and removal before approving these items for construction. I am not an economist but this seems like a reasonable light regulation solution to me. And since ships have to come from somewhere, maybe the right place to assess these is with the shipbuilders. Them the financial responsibility of the last owner is only to get the ship to its agreed on decommissioning location rather than having to pay the breaker or just abandon it.

Re: Shipbreaking

#145

Post by almostgotcaught »

vasco wrote: post #116
almostgotcaught wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a word for this specific kind of ambivalence where you label a pitiable, miserable set of circumstances "strange"? As if it's on the same level as the strong nuclear force? Maybe "motivated ambivalence". There's nothing strange about it just as there's nothing strange about cobalt mining conditions in Democratic Republic of Congo: exploitative trade agreements, political corruption, and apathy.

Using "strange" instead of "bad" to me indicates someone has enough maturity to recognize that human nature is part of nature, which is gnarly and creates bad things like humans setting up incentives without having to necessarily classify humans or the universe as bad. Is it bad when a lion kills another animal? In a way yes, it's extra death that could be preventable, in another way it's what it is. Is it strange or…

> has enough maturity to recognize that human nature is part of nature

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

Re: Shipbreaking

#146

Post by Retric »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #143
Retric wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you understand what that word means. Extortion isn’t simply any negative consequence. A dentist requiring payment before preforming surgery didn’t cause your tooth decay and they have no obligation to help you. Same deal here, someone offering a job is offering the possibility of a mutually beneficial relationship, but that’s as far as it goes.

What about when someone invents the concept of private property ownership, claims all the food as his own, hires a bunch of people by paying them with the food he has declared he owns to guard that food, and then demands payment for you to eat that food to survive? Maybe extortion isn't the right word, but it's certainly not voluntary exchange either.

In nature help isn’t freely available. Private property is the default, a crow picks up a stick and it’s theirs. Ants defend their nests etc. Plants will break out chemical warfare to defend themselves. Walk into a lion’s den asking for help and your going to get eaten.

So what food do you expect to be freely available?

Anyway a voluntary exchange doesn’t mean equal leverage for all parties. I’m not going to negotiate a windows license with Microsoft it’s take it or leave it. Which is the hart of a voluntary exchange, either party can walk away without one party forcing their will on the other.

Re: Shipbreaking

#147

Post by bart_spoon »

dippydipdips wrote: post #82
mattlondon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure really - I think there was a lot of strongly-accented "yee haw cowboy" type stuff from the NPC voices? Kinda wildwest in space? That is where my mind goes when I think of it, and I remember a distinct feeling of dislike.

I think you're thinking of Breathedge, not Hardspace: Shipbreaker.

No, the foreman like character in Hardspace has a heavy Southern accent and the soundtrack has a western tone

Re: Shipbreaking

#148

Post by dtgriscom »

ggm wrote: post #45

I met a captain whose job was to drive these kinds of vessels up onto the strand at Cox's bazaar. He said it was the saddest job he'd ever had. A lifetime of avoiding irretrievable beaching and then.. get a good line, and ram it up a beach to a final, terminal stop.

Reminds me of the "Cash for Clunkers" program:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System

They would destroy the engine by replacing the oil with sodium silicate, and then running it until it seized. I watched a video of this, and it was so sad watching a completely working car be killed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0IcIxhd8ks

Re: Shipbreaking

#150

Post by s1artibartfast »

Teever wrote: post #149
s1artibartfast wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every law tries to regulate the behavior of people in other jurisdictions.

How is this law like that?

Europeans don't like the working conditions of shipbreakers in India, and don't like the pollution it creates in India. Europeans can't directly tell the Indians what they can and cannot do.

Instead, the parent post is proposing to use the state surveillance app aratus to go after and prosecute the f** out of people that sell ships to India.

I said it seems like a lot of work to try to stop someone in another country from doing something in their own country.

I prefer the more hands off approach where you let people in other countries decide what they want to do as long as they aren't hurting you. If India wants to ban ship breaking or impose harsh restrictions, they can do that themselves. I think it's arrogant and dehumanizing for Outsiders to try to control what happens in India.

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