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Shipbreaking

edwardburtynsky.com

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Re: Shipbreaking

#131

Post by teachrdan »

paxys wrote: post #130
boringg wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those industries don't pay well to anyone involved but are a global benefit. Such a strange world we live in.

"Paying well" is relative. There are lots of industries that are rightly considered exploitative from the western eye, but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving or relying on meager government handouts if they went away.

This is plainly true. But there is a middle ground between "the least amount of money workers will accept before choosing to starve instead" and "so much money it's no longer economical to pay workers to do."

I have no idea what the case was in this specific industry in India. But in many developing countries, first world companies collaborate with government and pay off private muscle to make it impossible for workers to organize and earn anything in that middle ground.

(I do not mean to imply that you deny this possibility. But there are many on HN who uncritically believe that if workers take a job, it is therefore a fair wage taken voluntarily.)

Re: Shipbreaking

#132

Post by fifilura »

fifilura wrote: post #66
542458 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a bit confused as to how this investigation worked - how can they tell if clothes were ground for fiber with just airtags?

FWIW This is one of the sources, in Swedish though. https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/0QxkyA/modets-morker-5-... At the end there they list the fate of 10 different garments they returned to H&M. You can evaluate yourself if you find this environmentally friendly or not.

(This comment was not meant to be snarky although I realize it may look like it. I just did not have time to write a proper comment/translate to the article earlier. See my later answer in the sibling)

Re: Shipbreaking

#133

Post by ornornor »

boringg wrote: post #78
Waterluvian wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only imagine the conditions his "workers" worked in back then given how poor the conditions still are today. I think scenes from ship breaking, electronics recycling, and other recycling efforts sent overseas could fit in, as-is, to a film like Blade Runner.

Those industries don't pay well to anyone involved but are a global benefit. Such a strange world we live in.

Not trying to defend this kind of practices, it just reminds me of something I watched recently about the working conditions in the Victorian era in a UK cotton mill… Atrocious and exploitative by all current standards, and yet people chose this over more traditional agricultural occupations because it paid better, weekly, and there was no uncertainty that you’ll lose an entire season of wages because the harvest was bad. And yet they were working 72h a week, had indentured child labour, average life expectancy was something like 40 years old, injuries and loss of fingers or limbs were regularly occurring.

Re: Shipbreaking

#134

Post by frutiger »

vasco wrote: post #116
almostgotcaught wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a word for this specific kind of ambivalence where you label a pitiable, miserable set of circumstances "strange"? As if it's on the same level as the strong nuclear force? Maybe "motivated ambivalence". There's nothing strange about it just as there's nothing strange about cobalt mining conditions in Democratic Republic of Congo: exploitative trade agreements, political corruption, and apathy.

Using "strange" instead of "bad" to me indicates someone has enough maturity to recognize that human nature is part of nature, which is gnarly and creates bad things like humans setting up incentives without having to necessarily classify humans or the universe as bad. Is it bad when a lion kills another animal? In a way yes, it's extra death that could be preventable, in another way it's what it is. Is it strange or…

> Is it strange or bad if a human is born dumber than average?

And by definition, 50% of babies are.

Re: Shipbreaking

#135

Post by ornornor »

guidoism wrote: post #124
aredox wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trajectory of the last French air carriers - the Foch and the Clémenceau - is a good illustration of the mess it can be, even for former military flagships. Those military ships are of course full of asbestos - more than usual - and heavy metals. The Clémenceau was supposed to be dismantled in Spain, but when the marine nationale saw it being towed to Turkey, they cancelled the contract and got it back. Then anot…

I wonder how different each of the wikipedias are between languages. There's barely any info about the dismantling of the Clémenceau in the English wikipedia. I occasionally read the Spanish language wikipedia for South American history as it is more complete. As a someone fluent in both languages I feel like I have access to more knowledge. How much knowledge is "hidden" in other languages on Wikipedia? Would be coo…

For this kind of stuff there is usually much more in the language of origin. I’d suspect the French article have more details on this since it was the French navy.

Re: Shipbreaking

#136

Post by ornornor »

aredox wrote: post #43
throw383y8 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, West should stop dumping their garbage to the rest of the world. It is easy to have strict environmental regulations, if they are not enforced, and negative externalities are exported.

The maritime industry, more than "the West", is a prime culprit there. Let's also mention how they skirt taxation, the use of flags of convenience, the lack of protection for crews, the matrioshka shell companies...

And “magic pipes”!

Re: Shipbreaking

#137

Post by FireBeyond »

teachrdan wrote: post #131
paxys wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Paying well" is relative. There are lots of industries that are rightly considered exploitative from the western eye, but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving or relying on meager government handouts if they went away.

This is plainly true. But there is a middle ground between "the least amount of money workers will accept before choosing to starve instead" and "so much money it's no longer economical to pay workers to do." I have no idea what the case was in this specific industry in India. But in many developing countries, first world companies collaborate with government and pay off private muscle to make it impossible for worke…

> (I do not mean to imply that you deny this possibility. But there are many on HN who uncritically believe that if workers take a job, it is therefore a fair wage taken voluntarily.)

Reminds me of the Libertarian Police Department (https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertari...):

> "Do we have any leads?”

> “Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”

> “Easy, chief,” I said. “-Any- rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”

> He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”

Re: Shipbreaking

#138

Post by numpad0 »

paxys wrote: post #130
boringg wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those industries don't pay well to anyone involved but are a global benefit. Such a strange world we live in.

"Paying well" is relative. There are lots of industries that are rightly considered exploitative from the western eye, but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving or relying on meager government handouts if they went away.

> but people who are working these jobs would otherwise be starving

That's extortion...

Re: Shipbreaking

#139

Post by SeattleAltruist »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #112
SeattleAltruist wrote: post #104

Glad to see many comments recognize what a bad thing this is. The photographer is sadly insouciant of how many poor people it kills and the terrible ecosystem damage it creates. Read more about it at https://shipbreakingplatform.org/

Given how much of Burtynsky's work centers on the effects of human beings on each other and our world, I don't think it's fair to describe him as being indifferent to human suffering. Instead, I think he maintains an almost journalistic distance from it, and lets his work speak for itself. https://www.edwardburtynsky.com/projects/the-anthropocene-pr... https://www.edwardburtynsky.com/projects/in-the-wake-of-prog... h…

That's helpful. On first look through the website, I found no mention of the tragic human and environmental cost.

Re: Shipbreaking

#140

Post by creer »

mhuffman wrote: post #4
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #2

These are probably taken at the Alang (India) and Chittagong (Bangladesh) Ship Breaking Yards, where they run the ships aground at high tide. Both visible on Google Maps satelite view: https://www.google.com/maps/place/21%C2%B023'21.9%22N+72%C2%... https://www.google.com/maps/place/22%C2%B027'24.5%22N+91%C2%...

>where they run the ships aground at high tide. Probably a dumb question but what do they do on the next high tide? Wouldn't it interfere with their work?

Some photos show the work continuing even with a ship surrounded by a little water.
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