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Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

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Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#181

Post by mbesto »

pests wrote: post #180
mbesto wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "~" is important. Most merchants are incurring anywhere from 3~6% on charges made via CC. Likewise, your actual cashback varies (for example the highest I'm aware of is BoA's 2.65% cashback) and the average consumer is likely only getting about 1.5% cashback. So there is your delta. FYI - For people who work in payments, they know it's not as simple as this, but the point is that there is a delta between the two,…

I thought your original post made it seem like only CC users get the extra 3~6% for the ability to dispute. My point in the thread was everyone pays it and it ends up being cheaper for the CC holder due to cashback.

> everyone pays it

"pays it" is relative. The merchant is generally charging 3~6% more than they would otherwise if they didn't use a CC. Said differently, assuming all other things equal, buying the same good for the same price from two identical stores, one who only accepts CCs and one who accepts cash, the one who accepts cash will profit more. Therefore they can, in theory, charge less for their good.

> being cheaper for the CC holder due to cashback

"cheaper" how? The spread is effectively paid for by the merchant (their processing fee is 99% of the time higher than the cashback bonus a consumer earns) which in turn goes to vendors (like credit card providers, payment processors, etc) who then allocate costs against things like customer service for charge disputes.

EDIT: The spread is the original ~3% I'm referring to, which would be an average 1.5% cashback against a 4.5% payment processing charge for a delta of 3%. In many cases this is lower (or null) but you get the point.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#182

Post by mbesto »

saagarjha wrote: post #150
mbesto wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but collections for something they have no justifiable reason to collect on? To be clear, what I'm suggesting is (a) hypothetical to understand the business rationale and (b) is under the premise that what is on the bill matches the service you retained. In my theoretical scenario, the onus is on the merchant to prove they've provided the service you've paid for. The reason car rentals provide the convenience o…

My understanding is you can get sent to collections for basically any reason and debt collectors will hound you without regard to whether it is something you should be obligated to pay or not

And I can create a class action lawsuit for literally anything I want. Doesn't mean I'm going to win. What's your point?

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#183

Post by Nextgrid »

lolinder wrote: post #128
Nextgrid wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignorance of the law isn't a valid excuse for individuals is it? So it shouldn't be for companies either.

It's not a question of ignorance, it's a question of intent. If you walk into Walmart and intentionally walk out with a banana without paying, you can't get out of prosecution by claiming that you didn't know it was illegal to do that. If, on the other hand, you accidentally neglect to scan the banana at the self checkout then it is a valid defense to say that you thought you'd already scanned it in and you must have…

The problem is that this opens up an obvious vulnerability - underfund the department that's supposed to ensure compliance so that you effectively end up breaking the law at scale and yet retain this plausible deniability.

The only way out is to reverse the situation - companies should have even less leniency. You can't expect a single person to know the specifics of every law or to pay attention 100% of the time, but you can absolutely expect a company to be able to hire the necessary manpower to ensure near-bulletproof compliance.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#184

Post by nicce »

RandallBrown wrote: post #163
nicce wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just found the Turo first time, and the prices seems to be like 4 times more? At least if you rent longer durations.

That must be pretty location dependent. When I've used it the prices were usually dramatically lower, especially if you want something specific like AWD.

That is true, prices were lower for some special vehicles (e.g. 7 seats), but for traditional ones the were much higher.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#185

Post by pests »

mbesto wrote: post #181
pests wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought your original post made it seem like only CC users get the extra 3~6% for the ability to dispute. My point in the thread was everyone pays it and it ends up being cheaper for the CC holder due to cashback.

> everyone pays it "pays it" is relative. The merchant is generally charging 3~6% more than they would otherwise if they didn't use a CC. Said differently, assuming all other things equal, buying the same good for the same price from two identical stores, one who only accepts CCs and one who accepts cash, the one who accepts cash will profit more. Therefore they can, in theory, charge less for their good. > being che…

If both customers are shopping at the same store, and one pays in card and one pays in cash, the card holder pays less due to cashback. I agree the prices will be higher than at a store that does not accept credit cards due to not having to pay the fees.

The only way I see the extra 3% for cardholders is because they are "forced" to shop in card-accepting establishments which will have higher costs to cover fees while the cash user can choose the cheaper cash vendor.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#186

Post by jjav »

dylan604 wrote: post #177
falseprofit wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gave you the impression anyone was confused about that? You just think being taken to jail is no big deal?

"Ultimately I'll point the fault at the district attorney," For it to be the DA's fault, lots of other things have failed first. So I don't really see how the DA is that relevant. If devs failed by making software that doesn't work in a way that the company using it cannot keep track of their inventory in a way that makes it look like their customers have not returned items in a way that looks like it has been stolen…

> So I don't really see how the DA is that relevant.

Because only they are the one with the power to actually act on this and pursue charges. They are supposed to validate the facts before proceeding, but here they just take the word of hertz without any evidence (since hertz's systems are messed up as you say so they don't have any idea what's where) and run with it, accusing innocent people.

The DA is the one with the power to tell hertz to produce credible evidence or go pound sand. But they don't.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#187

Post by dylan604 »

jjav wrote: post #186
dylan604 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ultimately I'll point the fault at the district attorney," For it to be the DA's fault, lots of other things have failed first. So I don't really see how the DA is that relevant. If devs failed by making software that doesn't work in a way that the company using it cannot keep track of their inventory in a way that makes it look like their customers have not returned items in a way that looks like it has been stolen…

> So I don't really see how the DA is that relevant. Because only they are the one with the power to actually act on this and pursue charges. They are supposed to validate the facts before proceeding, but here they just take the word of hertz without any evidence (since hertz's systems are messed up as you say so they don't have any idea what's where) and run with it, accusing innocent people. The DA is the one with…

so by all of this, you are implying that DAs are taking these cases to trial and winning. this is where I am not familiar. what jury has heard one of these cases and convicted? what DA has brought a case to trial. where is this happening. you seem to have some form of awareness that this is the case. share it so we can all see where this is happening.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#188

Post by epcoa »

listenallyall wrote: post #179
epcoa wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not like you can pre-register a week in advance True, although you usually have a 48 hour window to post register. Not saying this is the most consumer friendly setup, but the fees are avoidable. > Further, not everyone in a rental (often in a strange place) knows they will use a toll road When I end up in a such a state I reflexively register (actually use a checklist, can take care of this in the hotel room…

Yes, technically they are avoidable, but it sounds like you are an outlier - doubtful that lots of people spend precious travel time (especially if with family/kids) registering on government web sites. Very doubtful that many people have checklists for this purpose. > But how would that work with open road tolling? For one, both companies also operate GPS services so perhaps it could all be integrated. Or just have…

> but it sounds like you are an outlier

Ah the weak HN trope to anyone giving sound advice when all you care about is “winning” an argument.

This also veered the topic into ad hominem completely unnecessarily.

> doubtful that lots of people spend precious travel time (especially if with family/kids)

Sheesh. That website takes literally less than a minute to complete for a link that I found in less than a 10 second search. I have family/kids, so no, try again.

When I arrive at the airport and I see long lines of families waiting for up to an hour at the Thrifty/Dollar/Fox counter so that maybe they could save a few bucks (often not) while I am walking directly to the lot from a flight to pick up the car - perhaps I may be an outlier, but I certainly know something about saving “precious” time and false economies.

30 seconds to fill out a web form is a complete nothingburger.

> Very doubtful that many people have checklists for this purpose.

I have a checklist for traveling. This is one item. Do you not understand the “list” part, it’s not a whole list just for tolls. Ironically, before I had a family I wouldn’t often bother. Having a family/kids makes lists a tremendous stress reliever.

> still benefit from no staffing the toll booth

> pull-off area right after the tollbooth

Open road (overhead) tolling has no toll booths. Some states are entirely toll booth free outside of bridges and others are following. The cost savings of eliminating toll booth infrastructure entirely is substantial because it’s not just the booths, it greatly simplifies hundreds of interchanges.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#189

Post by listenallyall »

epcoa wrote: post #188
listenallyall wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, technically they are avoidable, but it sounds like you are an outlier - doubtful that lots of people spend precious travel time (especially if with family/kids) registering on government web sites. Very doubtful that many people have checklists for this purpose. > But how would that work with open road tolling? For one, both companies also operate GPS services so perhaps it could all be integrated. Or just have…

> but it sounds like you are an outlier Ah the weak HN trope to anyone giving sound advice when all you care about is “winning” an argument. This also veered the topic into ad hominem completely unnecessarily. > doubtful that lots of people spend precious travel time (especially if with family/kids) Sheesh. That website takes literally less than a minute to complete for a link that I found in less than a 10 second se…

There's a physical structure which exists for the purpose of supporting the infrastructure and electronics necessary to collect tolls from the people who drive under it, right? That's a tollbooth.

As far as the rest, I wasn't trying to even make an argument, let alone win it. Just an observation that few people register their rental cars with out-of-state toll web sites. You sound like a very organized person, kudos, many people would like to run their lives as efficiently as you do. I certainly can't get from this page https://www.paturnpike.com/e-zpass/rental-vehicles to a completed, registered account in 30 seconds - it often takes me that long just to find my wallet and pull out the necessary credit card, let alone type it in.

Re: Hertz Charging a Tesla Renter for Gas Was Not an Isolated Incident

#190

Post by epcoa »

listenallyall wrote: post #189
epcoa wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it sounds like you are an outlier Ah the weak HN trope to anyone giving sound advice when all you care about is “winning” an argument. This also veered the topic into ad hominem completely unnecessarily. > doubtful that lots of people spend precious travel time (especially if with family/kids) Sheesh. That website takes literally less than a minute to complete for a link that I found in less than a 10 second se…

There's a physical structure which exists for the purpose of supporting the infrastructure and electronics necessary to collect tolls from the people who drive under it, right? That's a tollbooth. As far as the rest, I wasn't trying to even make an argument, let alone win it. Just an observation that few people register their rental cars with out-of-state toll web sites. You sound like a very organized person, kudos,…

> That's a tollbooth.

There’s no booth. There’s no place for a booth.

> There's a physical structure which exists for the purpose of supporting the infrastructure and electronics necessary

No, not really. In addition to the overhead gantry there’s a small off road utility cabinet and some solar panels. Most of the mainline NYS thruway for instance now has no toll booths. The tolling system is literally just a stantion/gantry like those holding up the road signs over the main highway. There’s no slowing down, and if you’re not paying attention you might not even notice it. There is no infrastructure for anyone to pull over or slow down, there are no dedicated access lanes. In some cases the toll points are not proximal to any interchanges. All of that has been permanently removed. Hence “open road tolling”.

As far as a pull off area? There are rest stops (some manned) and cell phone lots.

You realize once you put in that one “special” lane you’ve created a massive chokepoint (This hybrid has in fact been the status quo for years in many areas, getting away from it is the point)? It’s all or nothing really.

https://www.stantec.com/en/projects/united-states-projects/n...

I’ll admit the PA site is relatively unfriendly steaming pile. The NY one is much faster. Some states have a 14 day registration period (like IL), which should be the norm IMHO.

Finally, a tag is less and less onerous. Virtually every toll state on the east accepts Ezpass. You don’t need a Sunpass or whatever anymore.

Other thing many don’t do but should. Spend a minute or two making a walk around video with detail shots for damage. This is a small inconvenience over trusting the last check in guy. I prefer not having to get insurance involved if I can avoid it. It’s a $40000 piece of equipment I just took possession of (I do think the idea that this fundamentally can be an absolutely hassle free experience is some first world thinking - this is not a defense of the sliminess of the business, but still, let’s be reasonable, it’s too easy to just get the keys to a newish car. That said, I support existing and some further state level consumer protections).

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