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Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

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Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by the basic building blocks of reality? I was thinking photons which, when passed through a diffraction grating one at a time will cause an interference pattern on average but whose individual course is -- as far as we know -- unpredictable. This flies in the face of the idea that the universe is perfectly predictable. > The very machine you are posting your comment from can only be manufactured b…

It is only unpredictable if you confine yourself to a single branch. If you embrace Many Worlds and simulate things accordingly, creating branches as needed, the result of such simulation is consistent and reproducible.

Many worlds is a completely unprovable phenomenon

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not what science is at all. If reality changes science will adapt.

If laws change; laws imply that things always work the same, but they don't. At a micro level the universe is describable in the aggregate, but seemingly unpredictable. Science can change sure, but it cannot predict the unpredictable. You're not wrong to say science adapts but to say that quantum uncertainty hasn't caused the metaphysics of science (or at least some scientists) to change, is intellectual dishonesty.

I would call it a "law" that if I sample from a normal distribution I am more likely to sample from the mean than from the tail. The law is not on a specific draw but what the histogram will look like. The same way I wouldn't jump off a bridge because someone might jump off right after me with a parachute and attach it to me I wouldn't bet against classical laws due to quantum interaction. Can you name any specific physicists who should change their outlook? How should they be doing experiments differently due to your point?

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#493

Yes, the beauty of nature is, there is no magic. Everything is governed by laws, when we uncover it, we can replicate it.

In the sense that science is ultimately a religious enterprise expressing our belief in a constant, unseen, unchanging reality (which is not a universal belief by any means, and is utterly religious in nature), then yes, this is true. On the other hand, if we take an irreligious look at things and try to keep focus on just what we observe, one is forced to make the opposite conclusion, as the very basic building bloc…

Science is based on the hypothesis that stuff that worked yesterday will work the same way tomorrow, and it tries to discover the rules that govern the stuff. There is nothing religious about it. It's a safe assumption to make; if there are no rules or the rules can change in arbitrary ways, science should be able to detect that, too. We've seen enormous scientific progress throughout human history, and based on this history I think it's safe to say that it's the best way to learn about our world that we've discovered.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#494

I never understood this. Evolution basically says humans are conscious matter...why would that not be replicatable via an intelligent designer (humans)? Randomness created consciousness from a single cell...why would that be the most efficient solution?

> Evolution basically says humans are conscious matter.

Evolution states nowhere that humans are concious.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't replicate something we don't understand. The mechanism for consciousness is not understood at all right now and could actually be based on quantum effects that we haven't detected yet. It's also possible that it is only achievable in an organic machine. Until we understand how consciousness actually arises, the best we can do is a simulacrum of it.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I don't understand this "we have to understand consciousness first" stuff gets so much discussion. If it acts human, and is indiscernible from human or human like, it'll fit our definition. I don't understand why "organic machine" matters, it's the "machine" part that matters, and we are machines. I think all that needs to be seriously considered. Is it et…

I guess I just disagree with you. My background is neurobiology and biological systems are just so fundamentally different than conventional computing architecture in so many ways. I just don't believe that a true AGI is achievable as software alone. We might get something that "looks like a duck" but until it actually is a duck, I don't think it will be AGI.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you mean by the basic building blocks of reality? I was thinking photons which, when passed through a diffraction grating one at a time will cause an interference pattern on average but whose individual course is -- as far as we know -- unpredictable. This flies in the face of the idea that the universe is perfectly predictable. > The very machine you are posting your comment from can only be manufactured b…

Everyone admits to being unable to predict individual quantum interactions. My point is that above the quantum level these interactions don't have much of an effect. The reason that I didn't assume you were talking about these interactions is because you seemed to be rejecting scientific observations altogether. The context of your comment was in replying to the comment that "everything is governed by laws, when we u…

You should really be doing a bit more defense here given how completely off base your initial comment was, but whatever.

> Everyone admits to being unable to predict individual quantum interactions.

No.. not everyone, including you, before this comment. You asked for experiments that do not produce the same results, and I gave you several examples. That in and of itself refuted your initial arguments.

> My point is that above the quantum level these interactions don't have much of an effect.

Really depends what you're talking about, it's not true that every macro interaction has no phenomenon that relies on quantum mechanics. In other words, classical physics cannot explain several macro phenomenon.

> The reason that I didn't assume you were talking about these interactions is because you seemed to be rejecting scientific observations altogether.

That's your assumption not mine. If I were you, I'd think about why I made it.

> everything is governed by laws, when we uncover it, we can replicate it.

> Your response didn't read at all like you were talking about quantum interactions because you could have just said that. In fact it is usually common in such threads to reply "but what about quantum interactions?" to such comments. The way I read "a religious enterprise expressing our belief in a constant, unseen, unchanging reality" was that you disagreed that the equations in physics textbooks will change at some point. The reason I thought that was the context was "Everything is governed by laws" so I thought you were saying that the laws are not unchanging.

In other words, you are upset when I pointed out that science itself relies on unprovable assumptions. Again, that is not my problem to resolve. The inner tension between the aspect of science where we discover laws and the reality of the universe, which is that it seemingly randomly chooses what to do, is a tension for you to resolve, not me. But the belief that all things obey laws is a religious one. It is is an unprovable one, and when such interactions were discovered caused a major metaphysical problem for scientists, which you completely gloss over.

> Now reading your post, you seem to actually agree with most current scientific understanding. You don't actually seems to be saying that the laws of physics will change, Ask any physicist if some classical interaction will certainly happen the way it should. They will not say that it will happen with 100% certainty but rather that it is extremely likely that it will happen that way.

The 'current scientific understanding' that not every scientist shares. In response to the knowledge that the universe is not predictable, some scientists have simply accepted that and have relaxed their initial claim (which is, again, a religious one) that while the universe is not fully predictable, its macro phenomena can be described with certainty. That's one resolution. Some claim yet more esoteric ones, for example, that we live in a simulation (again, a religious belief). Some claim that the universe branches(again a religious belief, since it's unprovable). The only claim here that does not rely in some unseen reality is the first, which, again, is a major departure from what science was.

> I'm confused by what you are saying here. You agree that we can understand quantum interactions within "the laws of statistics" even if we can't know them for certain

Sure, in a colloquial sense, we can understand them. At no point did I refute this point, but accepting it is an implicit rejection of the comment I replied to that everything follows laws. A better restatement might be that 'as far as we know, many things seem to follow predictable patterns at sufficiently high levels of complexity', which is a very different statement.

> Additionally, what claim do you think is only being held together by the idea that the rules of physics are constant?

I'm not sure, but either way, this question is not on me to answer, because the person I responded to was the one claiming that conscious is physically explainable using the now-disproven idea that the universe is predictable at every level. Certainly, again, based on what we just said, brains might be using some unknown laws of physics, given that neurons do indeed operate at the molecular/atomic level (individual enzymes and neurotransmitters... who knows).

Finally,

> The way I read "a religious enterprise expressing our belief in a constant, unseen, unchanging reality" was that you disagreed that the equations in physics textbooks will change at some point.

You have no possible way of knowing whether they will or won't. In fact, some things become easier to explain about our own universe if they did indeed change, but I digress, because -- again -- no one has any clue. The belief that physics won't change is a prime example of a religious belief in science. The belief in a firm un-changing reality governed by principle un-changing laws. It's telling that this is a common aspect of divinity in the monotheistic religions that birthed science. More specifically, in the Christian West's view, this is the 'immutability' of God. I would argue from a humanist perspective that this belief in God's constancy (as opposed to the fickleness of nature spirits) is what gave birth to Western science.

Now that I've defended myself, I'm going to say a few words about this interaction. Firstly, you admit (thank you) that you made a few assumptions based on my framing of the commenter's belief system. I have noticed that many science-minded people get upset when you point out that science also comes with a set of beliefs that are tacitly accepted as true without any proof. I'm not sure why this is the case, since it seems most human endeavors ultimately do, but the response to this, instead of curiosity, was -- from my perspective -- wild accusations of not believing in science. To the contrary... I believe in science -- a lot. It's proven incredibly useful, and also, I do believe the universe follows laws, even if we can't see it. But I just admit it's a belief and move on with my life instead of being zealous about it.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consciousness requires a soul Any actual evidence for this is welcome.

I'm glad to discuss it, but that's all the evidence you're ever going to get, if you personally have not experienced... it. Through meditation, psychedelia, or religious practice. First-hand witness accounts and historical records are your evidence. How long you ignore it all is up to you. Once upon a time I was locked in a mind prison of material logic. I considered myself transhuman, dreamed of cybernetics and the…

I don't think we are ignoring any evidence here, there is just no evidence (or at least I haven't seen any). It seems these spirits are allergic to video or something, I have seen more video evidence of UFOs than spirits.

Of course, personal experience is also valid evidence, and I have seen none of that either.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#498
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are declaring it to be a fact that science is flawless. Defining something to be true by definition can certainly cause it to be appear to be true (read some forum discussions among even smart people on the internet if you do not believe this), but it doesn't guarantee that it will be.

Science is adaptable to reality -- therefore, it reflects reality as it is presented. Esoteric arguments portraying an ineffable, unobservable stream of will that never interacts with reality is not observable by definition; since it doesn't interact with reality, it can be safely ignored. Roko's basilisk be damned!

> Science is adaptable to reality -- therefore, it reflects reality as it is presented.

Are the adaptations both flawless and adequate to meet the claim? How would such a thing be tested to confirm truth?

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#499
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science is adaptable to reality -- therefore, it reflects reality as it is presented. Esoteric arguments portraying an ineffable, unobservable stream of will that never interacts with reality is not observable by definition; since it doesn't interact with reality, it can be safely ignored. Roko's basilisk be damned!

I think some people think science rejects mystical explanations because science is rigid and stubborn and has it's head buried in the sand. But no, it's because there's no proof. If we had evidence that something mystical was happening then it would be a huge breakthrough and it would eventually become science.

How do you know fine-grained details about the actual actions and cognition of millions of people that you have never met?

Furthermore, do you think there's something about becoming a scientist that converts Scientist Humans into perfectly rational beings?

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If laws change; laws imply that things always work the same, but they don't. At a micro level the universe is describable in the aggregate, but seemingly unpredictable. Science can change sure, but it cannot predict the unpredictable. You're not wrong to say science adapts but to say that quantum uncertainty hasn't caused the metaphysics of science (or at least some scientists) to change, is intellectual dishonesty.

I would call it a "law" that if I sample from a normal distribution I am more likely to sample from the mean than from the tail. The law is not on a specific draw but what the histogram will look like. The same way I wouldn't jump off a bridge because someone might jump off right after me with a parachute and attach it to me I wouldn't bet against classical laws due to quantum interaction. Can you name any specific p…

Thought experiment. I have a machine that produces a standard normal distribution. I know this because I built it and tested it a lot (alternatively, have God/divinity/an oracle/whatever build this machine).

You sample from it 100 times and get the number 3000 every time.

What can you say about the machine? Did it follow a normal distribution? Really?

How much was your statement about normal distributions able to predict what happened?

What does it mean for something to follow a law? The word law comes from a legal background for rules in human society. If society makes a law, can that law be broken following a normal distribution?

> I wouldn't bet against classical laws due to quantum interaction.

In my daily life I do not. However, given that the inner workings of the human brain are not explicable in our current understanding of physics, I don't need to 'bet against classical laws' there. We already know that something is going on.

> Can you name any specific physicists who should change their outlook?

There are several competing outlooks in physics right now. One is the 'shut up and calculate' approach which admits there are unknowable, unobservable, unmeasurable 'systems' (for lack of a better word) and all we can do is make colloquial statistical claims about them. Another is that the universe is always predictable and quantum choice is due to the branching of the universe into many observable worlds (although they never explain why my conscious experience only follows one path... one is forced to conclude they believe some quantum process is in play). Another is that quantum physics is just completely wrong (unlikely). Another is that consciousness (which is undefined) is a crucial feature to quantum mechanics and is necessary to cause collapse of the wave function. There's pilot wave theory which requires there to be an unseeable aether (and again, admits no way to measure the aether, so I'm not sure that exists).

There's a whole list of spiritual beliefs about quantum mechanics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mec...

Depending on your belief in what takes place (and it's really truly a belief, and in some systems, it's going to stay that way), take your pick of scientists who should change their outlook.

> How should they be doing experiments differently due to your point?

They shouldn't. Most physicists do good work explaining the way the world works, but they also admit that there are unknowable, unobservable, unmeasurable systems that govern it. The comment I replied to claimed otherwise.

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