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AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

julienposture.substack.com

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Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#51
post #7

The challenge I see is that (in the US at least), "style" is not copyrightable in the arts. IMHO this is a good thing because artists learn and copy from one another, and if it were copyrightable that would lead to no end of lawsuits between media companies. So my concern is trying to apply copyright to training AI models can easily slippery slope into more draconian copyright rules for human artists.

I don't think there is a slippery slope in the foreseeable future, unless you buy into sci-fi views of AI being like a human. We need to update the laws around copyright in response to these machines. It's similar to why copyright laws exist in the first place: the concept was developed in response to the printing press. At some point there will be a real I, Robot problem about an AI artist that actually understands…

Style is hard to objectify. It’s a lot easier to determine whether a 3D model depicts Super Mario than whether it’s in the “modern Nintendo” style.

Style is also very broad. It’s even harder to determine whether an 8-bit NES sprite is in the “old Nintendo” style, because 8-bit sprites don’t have much flexibility to distinguish themselves.

Broadness: imagine if whoever first came up with the “low-poly 3D” or “flat material” or “voxel” aesthetics could copyright them and prevent anyone else from selling anything in those styles. What defines a style as narrow enough that it can be copyrighted? And what if that definition changes, e.g. if a a specific voxel style gets copyrighted, then someone else discovers a brand new way to render voxels super efficiently in only that style?

Objectivity and similarity: an artist can make a concrete object or character which is very similar to a copyrighted one but also clearly distinct. This is very important, because if “similar” objects could violate copyright, where is the line when something is dissimilar enough? Ultimately it would be very far for small artists, who can’t afford to risk lawsuits; vast swaths of clearly not similar characters and objects would be blocked off from them, because in the eyes of the law and without good representation, they’re no longer “clearly” not similar. In fact, it may be hard for an artist to even come up with an object or character that doesn’t risk a copyright lawsuit, since there are more copyrights that anyone could fully know. (At least to my knowledge, with copyrightable characters and objects this hasn’t been a frequent issue; but if it is, copyrightable style will make it worse, so for the sake of the argument...)

Copyrighting style is basically copyrighting the “similar” works. There’s a fine enough line between whether a character or object is “similar to” or “the same as” another (again to the best of my knowledge). But there’s no fine line with style. If one tries to define a style with objective criteria like making their “style” a specific stroke thickness and color scheme, generative AI users will just create art which falls right outside of this criteria. If one tries to use an AI classifier (ironically) to deduce whether something is “the same” or “similar but distinct”, it will be foiled by AI-adversarial manipulation and its effectiveness will be endlessly disputed in court. And if one defines their style with very subjective judgements, that leads to the issue above.

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#52
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human creativity turns into a point on that curve. One mission of art is to find a different dimension, out of the curves reach, until eventually it becomes more common and the curve can be fitted to it again. AI cannot think outside of the box because it cannot think at all, there is no meaning behind what it does.

>Human creativity turns into a point on that curve. All human creativity are points ON the SAME Curve. It doesn't matter what turns what into what into some point on the curve or finding a different "dimension" If you come up with an algorithm that can traverse that curve you've found the algorithm for human creativity. We are close, deadly close, to the end. Especially given the fact that these AI algorithms literal…

"We're at the tippity top of the mountain, but we're only halfway up".

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#53

I’ve been using generative AI in my art for a good few years now and have a few thoughts on this. Yes it’s trivial to train a model on a particular style, I’ve done it many times, including on my own art. It can make things that look pretty good! But it can’t make anything great, not without a lot of luck or creative input from the user. It can make something that looks similar to a style, but it can’t explain what m…

As a follow on: One of my friends is a professional illustrator and was concerned about the impact of AI on their work. As a demonstration I trained some models on their styles. They were worried right up until they saw the output. Yes, it looked superficially like their work, but the slightest glance showed it to be absolute crap. Anyone who would consider using the AI version of their work over commissioning the ac…

It's possible that your model wasn't great, for my experience, in the past I uploaded an AI image in the same style of a certain artist to a website that organizes anime images, someone tagged it with the artist's tag because they thought it was made by him, also the image I uploaded got much more "likes" than anything made by the artist in months, and it's not like I'm spamming images, that was the only upload. (I later removed the tag, of course)

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#54

Related: "Invasive Diffusion: How one unwilling illustrator found herself turned into an AI model" [0]. It's astonishingly simple to train both LoRAs and Embeddings nowadays -- if you combine it with tech like ControlNet, you can more or less have direct control over the illustration as well (see this example I converted to Hollie Megert's style with barely any effort [1] using the model from [0]) -- but FWIW I was p…

> I do think there needs to be some kind of protection from having your 'style' commoditized without consent, using unauthorized images of your own art

I worry any attempt at that will strangle all creative endevours. Copying others style is not a new thing. It is the stuff culture is made of.

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That last part is the issue. Once the material is released publicly there is zero way to prevent it from being used for training. I like the idea of these things but they're predicated on theft and exploitation.

There are active countermeasures in the form of Glaze/Nightshade, but I don't know how effective those turned out to be in practice.

I wonder if Glaze/Nightshade makes it difficult for software to describe the image for a blind person?

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#56
I only have a Ryzen 5 3600x and a 7650xt, and downloaded AMD's LLM tool. It runs, and chats. I have thought about training it on the 4500 pages of LJ entries I saved to PDF (I know I'd have to extract the text, and then spell check that puppy. or not. Maybe I should just leave my misspells if it's a doppleganger).

But it seems it'd take a few weeks of running nonstop to train? Everywhere I'm reading says it's hard to determine the actual time required.

I would think 4500 pages of text would be a large enough volume to train. (assuming 500 words per page? If not more)

What's a good minimum number of blog entries/words to train a thing. I would think the more the merrier, but I ain't spending non-stop processing for weeks at a time.

I hate AI, I have no idea why I even want to try this, but... The data is there and it's local to my machine not shared with upstream, so I figure it'd be fine to mess with. Is my estimate in the ballpark?

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#57
post #54

Related: "Invasive Diffusion: How one unwilling illustrator found herself turned into an AI model" [0]. It's astonishingly simple to train both LoRAs and Embeddings nowadays -- if you combine it with tech like ControlNet, you can more or less have direct control over the illustration as well (see this example I converted to Hollie Megert's style with barely any effort [1] using the model from [0]) -- but FWIW I was p…

> I do think there needs to be some kind of protection from having your 'style' commoditized without consent, using unauthorized images of your own art I worry any attempt at that will strangle all creative endevours. Copying others style is not a new thing. It is the stuff culture is made of.

[deleted]

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#58
post #56

I only have a Ryzen 5 3600x and a 7650xt, and downloaded AMD's LLM tool. It runs, and chats. I have thought about training it on the 4500 pages of LJ entries I saved to PDF (I know I'd have to extract the text, and then spell check that puppy. or not. Maybe I should just leave my misspells if it's a doppleganger). But it seems it'd take a few weeks of running nonstop to train? Everywhere I'm reading says it's hard to…

If you hate AI, why do this?

If you just want to do it, why not just do it?

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#59
post #55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are active countermeasures in the form of Glaze/Nightshade, but I don't know how effective those turned out to be in practice.

I wonder if Glaze/Nightshade makes it difficult for software to describe the image for a blind person?

Not really, because Nightshade should have made image labeling more difficult, but if you try it, you'll see that it doesn't do anything; multimodal models are too powerful nowadays to be fooled by small adversarial noise generated using CLIP LPIPS (small enough not to be too noticeable to us).

And Glaze does not try to interfere with labeling.

Re: AI doppelgänger experiment – Part 1: The training

#60
post #58
post #56

I only have a Ryzen 5 3600x and a 7650xt, and downloaded AMD's LLM tool. It runs, and chats. I have thought about training it on the 4500 pages of LJ entries I saved to PDF (I know I'd have to extract the text, and then spell check that puppy. or not. Maybe I should just leave my misspells if it's a doppleganger). But it seems it'd take a few weeks of running nonstop to train? Everywhere I'm reading says it's hard to…

If you hate AI, why do this? If you just want to do it, why not just do it?

Not OP but I’d personally would rather be an informed hater instead of a believer hater.
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