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Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

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Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#191

Post by AQuantized »

strogonoff wrote: post #17
tomhoward wrote: post #11

I’m writing this comment so that people who want to know more about alternative theories of consciousness (to materialism/physicalism [1]) can know where to go to find well-argued positions on the topic. (To be clear, I’m not here to argue about the topic or try to persuade anyone of any position – that’s a waste of everyone’s time). I recommend seeking out discussions involving: - Federico Faggin: inventor of silico…

A philosophical framework in which creating an artificial entity that is conscious and self-aware in a human-like manner is as straightforward as modeling the human brain is monistic materialism. Of course, it’s not the only framework available. Among the modern takes, Donald Hoffman’s interface theory of perception (explored in, say, his Objects of Consciousness paper[0]) is an interesting one that appears to align…

To be fair 'modelling the brain' might not include things like neuron metabolism that probably isn't required for AI but is a part of the substrate of our own consciousness.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#192

Post by telmo »

everdrive wrote: post #48
hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #3

We don't even know whether other human beings are conscious, man. The only thing which we might say with much certainty is that things which are more "like us" along some metric are more likely to be actually conscious, and things which are less "like us" are less likely to be so. Maybe everything is conscious. Maybe nothing except one's own self. But you'll never truly know one way or another, even if humanity inven…

Consciousness seems to be a word that is poorly defined. You see this a lot, and one of the more popular instances are questions like "is cereal a salad?" It plays on the fact that the definition of a salad is relatively loose, and because it's loose items which aren't usually associated with the word do actually fit the definition. Consciousness feels much the same way: there's a very loose definition which is collo…

> Consciousness seems to be a word that is poorly defined.

I will give you my favorite definition, given to me by my friend Bruno Marchal, a brilliant mathematician from Brussels who spent his life thinking about such topics:

"Consciousness is that which cannot be doubted."

It felt insufficient when he told me, but now I am convinced. It may require some introspection to "get it". It did for me.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#193

Post by danans »

visarga wrote: post #39
grishka wrote: post #10

For all we know, it might be that consciousness is not fully contained in the physical structure of the brain. It might as well be something that partially exists on another layer of reality we have no idea about yet.

> For all we know, it might be that consciousness is not fully contained in the physical structure of the brain. It might as well be something that partially exists on another layer of reality we have no idea about yet. Yes, but not another layer. Just the environment around us - physical and social. Every sensation comes from the environment, our perceptions are trained on this data stream, every value is dependent…

> Yes, but not another layer. Just the environment around us - physical and social. Every sensation comes from the environment, our perceptions are trained on this data stream, every value is dependent on environment, our emotions reflect it, language and society are part of the environment, we base our thoughts on language and our actions on other people.

This is also my understanding of consciousness. We are overly focused on the human brain's capabilities as a generic information processing mechanism (because of its remarkable adaptability), that we ignore how fundamentally dependent it is on its environment, leading us to seek a metaphysical explanation for its functioning, when it's actually all around us.

Language, culture, and abstract thought capabilities that we use to describe consciousness are symbolic overlays upon the physical environment, but ultimately emerge from it, and their objectives ultimately tie back to it.

Human consciousness - especially its group/cultural aspects - has been a tremendous advantage to the species, which is why we are even in a position to be fascinated by it today.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#194

Post by somenameforme »

DeathArrow wrote: post #66

How can we assess if someone or something has consciousness? It's not like we have a defined framework with precise rules to tell if something has consciousness. In fact this problem might not be solvable.

Might not? One stepping into this sort of philosophy with any intent on solving anything is set to be quite disappointed. You have no way of knowing nor testing whether you're the only conscience person in existence. There's even reasonable logic for such scenarios outside of borderline nihilistic views.

We're all living through one ridiculously unique and critical era in humanity - internet, AI, space exploration, and more - all packed into a small enough timeframe to experience it all in a single human lifetime, which is a tiny minuscule fraction of the entire time our species has existed? If and when we ever develop the ability to create mind-blanked compelling simulations of the past, this moment will damn sure be one of the eras people will go back to experience. We're even the first era of widespread massive digital surveillance alongside the internet, creating more than enough data to create simulations of people like me - to further immerse you in your solitary world.

Of course I am conscience and I certainly assume you are too. But hey, we'll never know until we get to see what, if anything, waits beyond the final curtain.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#195

Post by K0balt »

What is a non-theist argument that dictates we should treat synthetic “consciousness” as fundamentally different than biologically derived conciousness?

I think this is a valid question Even if the strongest evidence for machines having “real”consciousness is its external/utility indistinguishability from biological consciousness ?

It would seem to me that a machine that seems to be conscious and professes that it is should then be treated as if it were, if for no other reason than the likely outcome of not doing so - creating “synthetic distrust and enemity” between “conscious” machines and humanity.

It seems like if we are going to ignore the “utility” argument for consciousness, we then must prove that other humans as well are actually conscious, and not just appearing to be so.

Seems like a bad place for the species to go, for a multitude of reasons.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#196

Post by naasking »

monstertank wrote: post #159

I never understood this. Evolution basically says humans are conscious matter...why would that not be replicatable via an intelligent designer (humans)? Randomness created consciousness from a single cell...why would that be the most efficient solution?

Some people are convinced by p-zombies and The Knowledge Argument that not everything we experience can be reduced to matter interactions.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#197

Post by a_random_canuck »

smokel wrote: post #43
hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #3

We don't even know whether other human beings are conscious, man. The only thing which we might say with much certainty is that things which are more "like us" along some metric are more likely to be actually conscious, and things which are less "like us" are less likely to be so. Maybe everything is conscious. Maybe nothing except one's own self. But you'll never truly know one way or another, even if humanity inven…

Consciousness might be overrated. It could simply be a short-term memory of the state you were in.

This is my take. Consciousness is overrated and probably just an emergent phenomena of the brain processing external stimuli into memory, moving memories around, etc etc, in a continuous and never ending flow. Free will is just an illusion of our deterministic but fundamentally random reality.

There isn’t even an agreed upon definition for what consciousness is from a scientific perspective.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#198

Post by thriftwy »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #182
thriftwy wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What changes when they are known? I believr it affects yout consciousness, not the one being simulated. The latter does not have "I'm being actually simulated" input

"Actually simulated" is such an oxymoron. So which is it? Is the consciousness actual, simulated, or actually simulated? And does the resulting state of mind change the universe, or merely reveal its hidden structure? It's easy to get lost in these unsolvable paradoxes when you try reducing all of creation down to logic. Problem is, logic is not all of creation. Consciousness requires a soul. Otherwise you're confuse…

> Consciousness requires a soul.

We don't know if it does. We do know enough to suspect that a deterministic simulation does not conjure thing into being.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#199

Post by anon-3988 »

If we are talking about intelligence or "agency", then I don't see why something other than carbon can do it.

But if we are talking about "there's there there", then I am not sure if we will ever find an explanation for this. Let's say that X is what gives rise to "there's there there". What does this tell me? Nothing.

This is perhaps the most interesting, most important, and most baffling mystery of the universe. It requires no equipment other than one's own mind. Esoteric contemplatives have spent millenias on this and none of them have the answer to the ultimate question.

Re: Is artificial consciousness achievable? Lessons from the human brain

#200

Post by mrangle »

After reading the abstract, the message received is that they intend to redefine consciousness to match whatever they are able to achieve; however limited.

The upside will be a lot of possible gaslighting. I remember when kids thought that Teddy Ruxpin was conscious. What's society's tolerance for how alt a consciousness can be?

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