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First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

ox.ac.uk

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Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#41

Post by card_zero »

Vampiero wrote: post #32
card_zero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that is fact, or inevitable, or meaningful. What are "thinking capabilities", what are they made of? More RAM? A human can have more RAM, by installing it in the human's computer. More parallelism? Maybe, but that's like having more humans. More speed? It's not clear what you'd do with it, since research tends to involve interaction and the outside world has a pace of its own: sitting in a cell on amphetamine…

I'd agree with what you're saying, but the jump to "not believing in superintelligence" doesn't make sense either. Are you implying that humans are the absolute peak of intelligence or that computers can't ever achieve something that is even just one iota better than human-level intelligence? There's one thing machines have that we don't: time. A human-level AI would be better than a human because you can ask it to s…

I'm implying that intelligence doesn't have quantifiable levels, so I disagree with "peak" and "better" as concepts. I know we can become better at solving problems in a domain, often with the assistance of tools. But I think the bogeyman of "superintelligence" is just a human with better tools. Perhaps including a synthetic brain. I expect its smarts to be cultural, made of ideas, mediated by technology, as usual, and domain-dependent, as usual, and not frighteningly "super" for the culture it exists in. I anticipate AGI as a development of us.

OK, so, maybe there are paradigm shifts to be reached that way, and maybe technology (familiarity with tools) will be crucial for these paradigm shifts which are the only way to understand certain new things intuitively. But, maybe this has been going on already, even before there were computers.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#42

Post by actionfromafar »

Vampiero wrote: post #32
card_zero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that is fact, or inevitable, or meaningful. What are "thinking capabilities", what are they made of? More RAM? A human can have more RAM, by installing it in the human's computer. More parallelism? Maybe, but that's like having more humans. More speed? It's not clear what you'd do with it, since research tends to involve interaction and the outside world has a pace of its own: sitting in a cell on amphetamine…

I'd agree with what you're saying, but the jump to "not believing in superintelligence" doesn't make sense either. Are you implying that humans are the absolute peak of intelligence or that computers can't ever achieve something that is even just one iota better than human-level intelligence? There's one thing machines have that we don't: time. A human-level AI would be better than a human because you can ask it to s…

Humans do that too, ie research institutes.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#43

Post by U1F984 »

sliken wrote: post #21
jl6 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Publish and perish.

No need to perish, current theories explain that the innermost region of a spinning black hole (all real world black holes spin) has a low gravity region where arbitrary navigation is possible. You can't escape, but you also don't have a death date with the singularity.

I can't find anything about these low gravity regions (Google redirects me to your post) but they sound interesting. Can you share some reading material?

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#44

Post by ben_w »

squrky wrote: post #37
sliken wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need to perish, current theories explain that the innermost region of a spinning black hole (all real world black holes spin) has a low gravity region where arbitrary navigation is possible. You can't escape, but you also don't have a death date with the singularity.

My layperson understanding is that collision with the singularity (if that even exists) is mathematically inevitable for an object that has crossed the event horizon. I think your scenario of hanging out within the event horizon and safely away from the singularity for indefinite time would require infinite fuel to counteract the gravitational gradient, or for even more fundamental reasons.

> or for even more fundamental reasons.

Even more fundamental: you'd need infinite fuel to hang out forever just outside the event horizon — once you're inside, the direction of the singularity is "future" not "forwards", so you can't resist getting there with any form of propulsion any more than you can resist getting to next Thursday with any form of propulsion.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#45

Post by gigatexal »

vbezhenar wrote: post #5
gigatexal wrote: post #2

Still continues to amaze me that the more they look the more they confirm Einstein. Yet we know — or strongly suspect — that at the singularity and within the BH general relativity breaks down. I hope we see a unification of GR and Quantum mechanics in my lifetime. Would be really neat

Is it even scientific to claim anything about black hole insides? AFAIU it's impossible by definition for any information to escape black hole insides. Any observation or experiment is not possible. Any assumption can't be confirmed or rebuted. Basically it can't be falsified, so it's not a science according to Popper.

Given our best theories we speculate what the inside of a black hole might be like. Of course we can’t know. But that’s how scientific things go: the cutting edge of human understanding is used to make predictions. Particular to the inside of a black hole, though, it’s impossible to test what we see or what happens when something passes the event horizon. I guess unless we wait basically an eternity capturing all the hawking radiation to rebuild what was sent in…

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#46

Post by klyrs »

MeImCounting wrote: post #23
klyrs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if we've reached the limit of what a singular human mind can push. You people are becoming zombies. Get away from your computer and interact with the world. Humans with profound intellect are producing the content that LLMs regurgitate for you.

Yes the LLM hype can be annoying. Equally if not more annoying is the smug disdain of those who criticize it. Even more annoying than that is people too caught up in "the world" and "serious matters" to read some sci-fi.

Don't get me wrong, I love reading and watching sci-fi! And actually, that's a great source of inspiration to keep my mind sharp; a superintelligence unleashed on our world today, with pathetically insecure networked listening devices in all of our pockets, a populace demonstrably manipulable through social media, etc; humanity has nothing but literal prayer to protect itself from actual superintelligence. Which isn't an actual defense, but hope feels nice.

Let's be clear: what we have today is LLMs. Not superintelligence. When people drool over the promise of superintelligence, to the exclusion of curiosity about the problems we intelligent humans can solve, they've bought into a thought-terminating utopian fantasy. That's a dead brain, that will not help humanity progress. Zombies.

Superintelligence, should it ever arise, is my enemy. The disdain that I have for its adherents is born of self-preservation.

edit to add clarity regarding my admonition to experience "the world": whoever receives all of their knowledge from computer sources is readily replaced by an automaton with access to the same. Those of us who are curious about the world around us are capable of making observations yet to be recorded in electronic form. Be curious, my friend, or succumb to zombiehood.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#47

Post by kelseyfrog »

chungy wrote: post #6
vbezhenar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it even scientific to claim anything about black hole insides? AFAIU it's impossible by definition for any information to escape black hole insides. Any observation or experiment is not possible. Any assumption can't be confirmed or rebuted. Basically it can't be falsified, so it's not a science according to Popper.

We can hypothesize, but there is no known way to ever test it. At least not with the information getting out of the black hole.

Without being able to test, the insides of blackholes are outside the realm of falsifiability and thus forever beyond science.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#48

Post by MeImCounting »

klyrs wrote: post #46
MeImCounting wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the LLM hype can be annoying. Equally if not more annoying is the smug disdain of those who criticize it. Even more annoying than that is people too caught up in "the world" and "serious matters" to read some sci-fi.

Don't get me wrong, I love reading and watching sci-fi! And actually, that's a great source of inspiration to keep my mind sharp; a superintelligence unleashed on our world today, with pathetically insecure networked listening devices in all of our pockets, a populace demonstrably manipulable through social media, etc; humanity has nothing but literal prayer to protect itself from actual superintelligence. Which isn'…

At the risk of repeating myself, yes the LLM hype is quite overdone and annoying. What you say is true people have bought into a fantasy which is wholly unrealistic.

Unfortunately your view is altogether tiresome and much harder to scroll past than the juvenile LLM excitement because it could actually do some real harm in the long term. No 'The Terminator" was not a documentary, nor was "The Matrix" nor even is your favorite episode of "Black Mirror".

Watts is far more eloquent than I could ever be on this subject matter. I highly recommend this article in The Atlantic by him and if you havent picked up any of his work I highly recommend pretty much anything hes ever written.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/03/ai-conscio...

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#49

Post by willis936 »

ganzuul wrote: post #11

Why is it that some experts say stuff falls into the center of a black hole while others say it slows down and never passes the event horizon? Is it just semantics?

PBS SpaceTime had a recent episode that helps with this apparent paradox.

Really their entire playlist on black holes (and entire catalog for that matter) is worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/Rogm_lpVZYU

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#50

Post by pavel_lishin »

sliken wrote: post #22
ganzuul wrote: post #11

Why is it that some experts say stuff falls into the center of a black hole while others say it slows down and never passes the event horizon? Is it just semantics?

From the external view you never enter, just get dimmer as you approach the speed of light and the time dilation keeps increasing. From the viewpoint of the one falling in, you just fall in and cross the horizon without noticing. Does make you wonder if time dilation gets so extreme, could another black hole wonder by, offset the gravity of the black hole, and let you escape. Even if it takes a billion years.

Once you've crossed the horizon from your point of view, there is no escape. If another, larger black hole passes by, at best you'd be within a larger event horizon comprised of both, I think.
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