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'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

theguardian.com

101–110 of 127 posts

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#101
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to nitpick, but to engage. Can the quote be taken “entirely out of context” if the context itself isn’t “entirely clear”? Or does your interpretation of the quote and its meaning differ from the author’s?

The way the quote is used in the title of the article implies that someone involved with Palentir is referring to their AI as a weapon of mass destruction on par with the atom bomb, but when the quote appears in the article it clearly has nothing to do with AI, nor is the speaker comparing himself to Oppenheimer's role in creating the first atom bomb, he's just noting that he is occupying the exact same job as Oppenh…

The very elements that you use to argue for why the quote is being taken out of context can be spun around in favor of the interpretation that it is not.

- Many hold the notion that the threat of AI is similar to that of nuclear weapons.

- Gen. Mark Milley is one of the key “characters” in the author's account of their time at Palantir’s conference showcasing its warfare AI.

- Milley works in Nuclear research at Los Alamos, like Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer was the lab’s director. Milley’s exact role with the lab isn’t mentioned and I couldn’t verify his exact position, but the present day iteration of the lab is ran by someone else.

- A key theme of the story is how oblivious some key attendants and organizers are of the potential damage that warfare AI will have.

- It can be argued that those in attendance are primarily interested in developing the means to victory on the battlefield at any cost that can be rationalized by credentialed minds. A parallel can be made between warfare AI today and the development of nuclear weapons during WWII.

- Milley is comparing himself to Oppenheimer. He probably does not mean the he is the present director of the Los Alamos laboratory. It’s arguable that he is saying so in an attempt to amuse the author, much to the author's distaste. Note the pop culture references, the author's internal and external jabs in response, and the offering of state department swag (the pens and stickers).

> “Have you seen Oppenheimer?” he asked. > > No, I said, but I’d read The Making of the Atomic Bomb. > > I thought he was going to talk about the hubris of people who build weapons of war. > > Instead, he told me he works in nuclear weapons research at Los Alamos laboratory. Reaching into his backpack, he handed me a few Los Alamos pens and stickers.

These paragraphs and another half paragraph before the actual quote appears in the body of the article set the stage well enough to suffice for context.

A bystander may or may not make the same connections if they were to overhear this conversation as it happened, but an attentive reader can due to the privilege of having intimate knowledge of everything that took place before the exchange and a few details outside of it.

Whether it's conveyed via the actual conversation, or against the backdrop of the author’s publicized impressions during the conference and other elements that exist beyond it, the quote is not positioned inappropriately.

We have to remember that this article is not a traditional “news story”, it is a subjective account. The connections that make the quote noteworthy may not be found by all and sundry, but I’m confident that the Guardian has a feel for its readership and the sentiment that they and others will have about their stance on AI, Palantir, warfare, etc. prior to reading the piece.

I think the literary element at play is something like irony.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could see it as saying that the peace activists are on a path that will not actually lead to peace, but rather to war, and those preparing for war are on a path that will actually lead to peace. "If you wish for peace, prepare for war" is an old way of phrasing this. It's not a new thought.

This only works when you accept the legitimacy of war as a premise.

It doesn't work great to consider war illegitimate when rival nations do not.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way the quote is used in the title of the article implies that someone involved with Palentir is referring to their AI as a weapon of mass destruction on par with the atom bomb, but when the quote appears in the article it clearly has nothing to do with AI, nor is the speaker comparing himself to Oppenheimer's role in creating the first atom bomb, he's just noting that he is occupying the exact same job as Oppenh…

The very elements that you use to argue for why the quote is being taken out of context can be spun around in favor of the interpretation that it is not. - Many hold the notion that the threat of AI is similar to that of nuclear weapons. - Gen. Mark Milley is one of the key “characters” in the author's account of their time at Palantir’s conference showcasing its warfare AI. - Milley works in Nuclear research at Los…

The only way the quote might be correct is if Milley is actually directing some AI project and nuclear research is his cover. These days, the "Director of Nuclear Research at Los Alamos" would report to the director since the place is much bigger. Also, his last job was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so he's probably director of something.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#104

> “Let’s say you’re operating in a place with a lot of civilian areas, like Gaza,” I asked the engineers afterward. “Does Palantir prevent you from ‘nominating a target’ in a civilian location?” > Short answer, no. “The end user makes the decision,” the woman said. It seems to me that the author of this piece doesn't understand that any system that claimed to be able to predict civilian's and combatant's locations be…

>it isn't really possible to have a Google maps interface with neatly labeled bounding boxes of "don't worry the bad guys aren't allowed to go inside these buildings, only the civilians".

This is literally what the US supposedly did for some limited circumstances (churches) during the Gaza genocide and Israel chose to bomb those targets instead.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the world would be better off if everyone "stuck their head in the sand" regarding warfare. Like quarantining disease, everyone just needs to calm down.

> Like quarantining disease This is the opposite of sticking your head in the sand about disease. It's doing something about it, even at personal cost.

The ideas are the virus.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s not something everyone can stick their heads in the sand about because it makes them uncomfortable. That's a strawperson and you know it; IMHO that argument is sticking one's head in the sand to avoid the unconfortable issues raised in the article and by others: Many extreme warmongers are out there now; there's a powerful tide of embracing violence and hate, and we know where that leads.

> Many extreme warmongers are out there now; there's a powerful tide of embracing violence and hate Sure. But that still violates the author's dichotomy: a hateful warmonger wants death. If you're an amoral war profiteer, your fodder are folks who want death. Dividing the audience into people who care about money only and people who care about death (presumably the good guys in the author's view) makes no sense.

I think it's a strawperson, a distraction, to take it literally and criticize it. That's not the main issue or point of the article. They can't flesh out every point in detail.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really looking for problems. The Palantir CEO said things much more extreme: As the moderator asked general questions about the panelists’ views on the future of war, Schmidt and Cohen answered cautiously. But Karp, who’s known as a provocateur, aggressively condoned violence, often peering into the audience with hungry eyes, palpably desperate for claps, boos or shock. He began by saying that the US has to “s…

Whoa, hold up for a second. > He began by saying that the US has to “scare our adversaries to death” in war. Referring to Hamas’s 7 October attack on Israel, he said: “If what happened to them happened to us, there’d be a hole in the ground somewhere. You cited this as an example of an extreme opinion, but this is bog-standard MAD that’s been a big part of the US strategy since the Cold War. We don’t want to go to wa…

> this is bog-standard MAD that’s been a big part of the US strategy since the Cold War.

That's not MAD as I understand it: The essential challenge of international relations is to create non-escalatory situations - situations where parties won't be compelled or tempted to engage in a escalatory cycle that lead to warfare, which is often unwanted by all parties to it but unavoidable. Obviously, that can't be allowed to happen with strategic nuclear weapons.

Parties that are 'scared to death' tend to escalate; they are human; they panic, they imagine things and act on their fears. It's the warmongers and basement generals who imagine 'scared to death' tactics.

MAD was designed to create a stable, non-escalatory, trusted situation. There were treaties limiting weapons and their deployment, hotlines, verification. Weapons were spread out, including in the triad (at sea, in air, and on land), to reduce the ability of the enemy to knock them all out, and thus to disincentivize a surprise attack.

MAD is only used with nuclear weapons afaik, and only with Russia and now, probably, with China.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#108

The ability of the extreme right to promulgate talking points seemingly directly into people's beliefs, bypassing the moral, spiritual, and reasoning parts of their brains, is surreal. People just parrot stuff that is paper thin, that can't withstand even a little scrutiny. I know there is much research and obviously much practice on how to do that, but the effectiveness is extreme. Even people who have expertise and…

> The world desperately needs a leader - a Churchill, a Lincoln, just about anyone - to stand up to it, to show people there are other, much better ways. The Churchill who authorized the bombing of Berlin? The Churchill who authorized the bombing of Dresden? The Lincoln that authorized Sherman's march to the sea with its intentional destruction of civilian areas to break the will of the south to fight? The Lincoln wh…

If everyone with flaws is disqualified, or is equal to everyone else with flaws, then it all loses meaning.

I'm not certain those were flaws in forsight, or necessarily even in hindsight. Regardless, those leaders did not preach or lead on the basis of fear, hatred, an ignorance.

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very elements that you use to argue for why the quote is being taken out of context can be spun around in favor of the interpretation that it is not. - Many hold the notion that the threat of AI is similar to that of nuclear weapons. - Gen. Mark Milley is one of the key “characters” in the author's account of their time at Palantir’s conference showcasing its warfare AI. - Milley works in Nuclear research at Los…

The only way the quote might be correct is if Milley is actually directing some AI project and nuclear research is his cover. These days, the "Director of Nuclear Research at Los Alamos" would report to the director since the place is much bigger. Also, his last job was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so he's probably director of something.

[deleted]

Re: 'I'm the new Oppenheimer ': Palantir's first-ever AI warfare conference

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very elements that you use to argue for why the quote is being taken out of context can be spun around in favor of the interpretation that it is not. - Many hold the notion that the threat of AI is similar to that of nuclear weapons. - Gen. Mark Milley is one of the key “characters” in the author's account of their time at Palantir’s conference showcasing its warfare AI. - Milley works in Nuclear research at Los…

The only way the quote might be correct is if Milley is actually directing some AI project and nuclear research is his cover. These days, the "Director of Nuclear Research at Los Alamos" would report to the director since the place is much bigger. Also, his last job was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, so he's probably director of something.

What a fool of me.

Milley actually didn't even say the quote that we're discussing. An unidentified man did.

The meaning of the quote in the context of the exchange where it was made is not entirely clear, I agree with you on that. The headline exploits this uncertainty. The reader's (i.e., me) biases fill in the blanks.

For all we know, the guy was just trying to impress a woman. He could be nothing more than a researcher manning a both, making a bizarre claim at a bizarre conference. His reference to "Oppenheimer" could even be about the film and not the actual man.

Pardon me for your time. I can see why this story is getting so much criticism.

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