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First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

ox.ac.uk

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Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#21

Post by sliken »

jl6 wrote: post #16
disconcision wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIU it's impossible by definition for any information to escape black hole insides. Any observation or experiment is not possible this doesnt precisely follow. observation or experiment is possible from within the event horizon, although this might limit plausible venues for publication

Publish and perish.

No need to perish, current theories explain that the innermost region of a spinning black hole (all real world black holes spin) has a low gravity region where arbitrary navigation is possible. You can't escape, but you also don't have a death date with the singularity.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#22

Post by sliken »

ganzuul wrote: post #11

Why is it that some experts say stuff falls into the center of a black hole while others say it slows down and never passes the event horizon? Is it just semantics?

From the external view you never enter, just get dimmer as you approach the speed of light and the time dilation keeps increasing.

From the viewpoint of the one falling in, you just fall in and cross the horizon without noticing.

Does make you wonder if time dilation gets so extreme, could another black hole wonder by, offset the gravity of the black hole, and let you escape. Even if it takes a billion years.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#23

Post by MeImCounting »

klyrs wrote: post #4
cdchn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to bring the all pervasive AI topic into this discussion, but I think the best hope we have for finding that unification depends on an AI superintelligence. I wonder if we've reached the limit of what a singular human mind can push.

> I wonder if we've reached the limit of what a singular human mind can push. You people are becoming zombies. Get away from your computer and interact with the world. Humans with profound intellect are producing the content that LLMs regurgitate for you.

Yes the LLM hype can be annoying.

Equally if not more annoying is the smug disdain of those who criticize it.

Even more annoying than that is people too caught up in "the world" and "serious matters" to read some sci-fi.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#24

Post by Sakos »

vbezhenar wrote: post #5
gigatexal wrote: post #2

Still continues to amaze me that the more they look the more they confirm Einstein. Yet we know — or strongly suspect — that at the singularity and within the BH general relativity breaks down. I hope we see a unification of GR and Quantum mechanics in my lifetime. Would be really neat

Is it even scientific to claim anything about black hole insides? AFAIU it's impossible by definition for any information to escape black hole insides. Any observation or experiment is not possible. Any assumption can't be confirmed or rebuted. Basically it can't be falsified, so it's not a science according to Popper.

This is such a weird statement. A lot of currently established science was only theorized during the early 20th century, long before we had the tools so they could be "proven" with real-world experiments. It was still science at the time.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#25

Post by Sakos »

redundantly wrote: post #8
klyrs wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if we've reached the limit of what a singular human mind can push. You people are becoming zombies. Get away from your computer and interact with the world. Humans with profound intellect are producing the content that LLMs regurgitate for you.

I read their comment more as a nod to The Last Question than speaking about the recent "AI" in the news. https://archive.org/details/Science_Fiction_Quarterly_New_Se... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

Then they should've made an explicit reference. As is, I don't see any indication that they're even aware that The Last Question exists and it sounds like every other LLM fanatic.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#26

Post by rthnbgrredf »

vbezhenar wrote: post #5
gigatexal wrote: post #2

Still continues to amaze me that the more they look the more they confirm Einstein. Yet we know — or strongly suspect — that at the singularity and within the BH general relativity breaks down. I hope we see a unification of GR and Quantum mechanics in my lifetime. Would be really neat

Is it even scientific to claim anything about black hole insides? AFAIU it's impossible by definition for any information to escape black hole insides. Any observation or experiment is not possible. Any assumption can't be confirmed or rebuted. Basically it can't be falsified, so it's not a science according to Popper.

We have Hawking radiation and gravitational waves and the future potential to experiment with microscopic black holes in the lab, along with the hypothesis that Planet 9 might be a primordial black hole in our solar system, there is a wealth of opportunities to explore and learn more about black holes experimentally, without entering one physically.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#27

Post by rthnbgrredf »

af78 wrote: post #19
cdchn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to bring the all pervasive AI topic into this discussion, but I think the best hope we have for finding that unification depends on an AI superintelligence. I wonder if we've reached the limit of what a singular human mind can push.

AI or not, if a machine finds an answer so complex that no human can understand it, how useful is it?

Depends on whether we can instruct the AI to make something useful out of it. Today we have complex systems like CPUs that most humans don't understand.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#28

Post by rthnbgrredf »

sliken wrote: post #22
ganzuul wrote: post #11

Why is it that some experts say stuff falls into the center of a black hole while others say it slows down and never passes the event horizon? Is it just semantics?

From the external view you never enter, just get dimmer as you approach the speed of light and the time dilation keeps increasing. From the viewpoint of the one falling in, you just fall in and cross the horizon without noticing. Does make you wonder if time dilation gets so extreme, could another black hole wonder by, offset the gravity of the black hole, and let you escape. Even if it takes a billion years.

> Does make you wonder if time dilation gets so extreme, could another black hole wonder by, ... Even if it takes a billion years.

This could even be the most likley scenario, since ultra massive black holes eats vast amounts of smaller over the course of billion years.

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#29

Post by thriftwy »

vbezhenar wrote: post #5
gigatexal wrote: post #2

Still continues to amaze me that the more they look the more they confirm Einstein. Yet we know — or strongly suspect — that at the singularity and within the BH general relativity breaks down. I hope we see a unification of GR and Quantum mechanics in my lifetime. Would be really neat

Is it even scientific to claim anything about black hole insides? AFAIU it's impossible by definition for any information to escape black hole insides. Any observation or experiment is not possible. Any assumption can't be confirmed or rebuted. Basically it can't be falsified, so it's not a science according to Popper.

Yes, it is scientific. For example, Kruskal–Szekeres coordinates precisely describe movement inside the black hole.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal–Szekeres_coordinates

Re: First proof that "plunging regions" exist around black holes in space

#30

Post by redundantly »

Sakos wrote: post #25
redundantly wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read their comment more as a nod to The Last Question than speaking about the recent "AI" in the news. https://archive.org/details/Science_Fiction_Quarterly_New_Se... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question

Then they should've made an explicit reference. As is, I don't see any indication that they're even aware that The Last Question exists and it sounds like every other LLM fanatic.

The term AI has been around a heckuva lot longer than the current LLM hype. It's not unreasonable to make that assumption, to link it along the lines of what AI really means vs how the term has been used as of late.
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