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Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

architecturalrecord.com

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Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#81

Post by mynameisvlad »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #60
giantg2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What I found was that fire deaths that could have been prevented by a second staircase are extremely rare." I agree. At least in my limited experience, it seems a lot of the deaths in the US are related to either intoxication or sleeping. In these states, it's common for the person to have never even been aware of the danger.

> At least in my limited experience, it seems a lot of the deaths in the US are related to either intoxication or sleeping. In these states, it's common for the person to have never even been aware of the danger. That won't work as evidence that US fire policies aren't helping. You need data from somewhere where those policies aren't in place, like presumably Finland.

So you wan…. What? Data on the number of fires that resulted in people dying in their sleep and therefore would not have benefitted from multiple egresses?

The data you are looking for literally does not exist. That’s not something people closely monitor.

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#82

Post by jimberlage »

giantg2 wrote: post #42
jltsiren wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why can't we have both multiple staircases and fire-retardant construction? If your goal is to save lives, there are other things you can regulate that are orders of magnitude more cost-effective. Where the expected price of each saved life is just millions instead of billions. When there was another discussion on this topic a while ago, I spent some time reading about fire deaths in Finland. Finland is a country w…

"What I found was that fire deaths that could have been prevented by a second staircase are extremely rare." I agree. At least in my limited experience, it seems a lot of the deaths in the US are related to either intoxication or sleeping. In these states, it's common for the person to have never even been aware of the danger.

Yup. When I last looked into it the overwhelming amount of fire deaths were squatters lighting fires in derelict homes, and were not in a state of mind to escape.

Better homeless shelter policies & mental health support would be wildly more effective at preventing fire deaths than code enforcement.

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#83

Post by zrn900 »

TylerE wrote: post #31
aeturnum wrote: post #29

I liked this youtube video that covers the same topic[1]. The US focusing entirely on this strategy to increase fire safety seems obviously stupid to me. As people say in other comments here - Europe and other countries require better fire suppression measures and materials instead of particular egress options. An obvious improvement would be to allow builders to use any combination of these approaches to achieve a m…

Europe is also where Grenfell Towers happened.

The UK has been taking the US as an example for a long time - from its Reaganite economics to its deregulation. Greenfell is one result of that.

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#84

Post by sgerenser »

thinkingkong wrote: post #11

I suspect the 6 story and shorter buildings will end up having an alternative design where the stairwell and possibly certain walls are concrete, poured around the same time as the foundation, but the remaining structure is engineered timber. The challenge is going to be convincing fire departments and insurance agencies that theyre safe enough to not prevent.

Isn’t this already how 5-over-1[1] apartment/condo buildings are constructed in the U.S.?

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-over-1

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#85

Post by sgerenser »

indrora wrote: post #13
thinkingkong wrote: post #11

I suspect the 6 story and shorter buildings will end up having an alternative design where the stairwell and possibly certain walls are concrete, poured around the same time as the foundation, but the remaining structure is engineered timber. The challenge is going to be convincing fire departments and insurance agencies that theyre safe enough to not prevent.

Ascent building in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is doing a lot to challenge the attitudes against Timber: https://www.dezeen.com/2022/08/03/ascent-tower-milwaukee-wor... There's a fantastic article about the challenges here: https://www.enr.com/articles/50905-milwaukees-25-story-ascen... tl;dr: Insurance companies might be hesitant but it's often a matter of getting the right signoffs. Change may well be on the horizon, howe…

That’s a cool looking building, but I have to imagine that amount of glass must mean very high heating and cooling bills. Hope they at least installed efficient heat pumps.

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#86

Post by LegitShady »

avisser wrote: post #30
josephcsible wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, Europe's requirements save more lives than the US's overall. But we should take the best of both rather than abandoning the good parts of US standards. Saying we should stop having multiple paths of egress because more fire-resistant buildings save more lives is like saying we should stop having air bags because seat belts save more lives.

> Saying we should stop having multiple paths of egress because more fire-resistant buildings save more lives is like saying we should stop having air bags because seat belts save more lives. And completely ignores the housing shortage that's troubling almost everywhere in America.

two stair egress isn't causing a housing shortage.

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#87

Post by LegitShady »

vezuchyy wrote: post #20
vajrabum wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is most likely part of the reason why US multi-story buildings are less safe than European ones. I know that Europeans find the idea of wood frame buildings to be a little scary. Like wny do you do that?

At least in Canada, there were multiple researches on the topic and the only benefit of a timber frame is a speed and simplicity of construction. Given that they normally end up with a very similar price tag for new constructions, I don't see why consumer would prefer timber...

because the amount of firms who can build timber frame buildings is far far greater than the amount of firms who can build concrete buildings, which leads to more competition and also more housing being constructed.

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#88

Post by mynameisvlad »

LegitShady wrote: post #86
avisser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying we should stop having multiple paths of egress because more fire-resistant buildings save more lives is like saying we should stop having air bags because seat belts save more lives. And completely ignores the housing shortage that's troubling almost everywhere in America.

two stair egress isn't causing a housing shortage.

From TFA:

> The argument, in short, is to re-legalize single-stair apartment buildings, also known as “point-access blocks”—a typology that was once commonplace and remains so in much of the world, including the European Union, where fireproof single-stair designs are allowed. If combined with zoning reform, such code reform would enable attractive, light-filled multifamily housing to be built cost-effectively on countless urban sites that would otherwise be developed as single-family homes.

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#89

Post by helij »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #28
seabass-labrax wrote: post #14

It's a thought-provoking article. I have mixed feelings about the idea: on one hand, visiting a friend's Weimar-era home in the DDR side of Berlin really impressed me. It was slightly different from those depicted in the article (it was part of a longer row of connected buildings), but the green space afforded by the courtyard was wonderful and the opportunities for community building palpable. Yet, on the other hand…

I live in a former yugoslav socialist building, and our external walls are made from reinforced concrete. Our internal walls are reinforced concrete. Our bathroom walls are reinforced concrete. Drilling a hole to pull a network cable from one room to another is a pain. On the other hand... this are the results of a rather large gas explosion: https://novice.svet24.si/clanek/novice/crna-kronika/5be30a53... and another…

Culture shock was big for us when we moved from 'bad socialist block of flats' like that to a new, modern and expensive London block of flats made out of cardboard. I know that my flat in old country will still be there for my wife and I to retire if we move back, while this one will probably seriously deteriorate.

I agree, cabling is a pain but oh my are they taking us for a ride with these newbuilds with easy cabling. Houses are no better here. They say these newbuilds are all fireproof and engineers come once a week to test everything. Of course, I hope we never have to find out if the certificate is worth anything.

All in all, those Yugoslav socialist buildings put these newbuilds to shame. Even those 40 year old locally made lifts are better than whatever Otis is installing into newbuilds these days. Our lift is loud, shaking. Never experienced that kind of shaking in any of socialist buildings. I suspect though that newbuilds in Slovenia these days are pretty similar cardboard boxes...

Re: Exit Strategy: The Case for Single-Stair Egress

#90

Post by rtpg »

pjc50 wrote: post #64
rtpg wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would metal stairwells be too costly? Seems to me like it might be an easier construction job (especially with some standardized heights)

It's much easier to pour concrete than do all that welding, and steel is not as fire resistant as you might expect.

I was just thinking of bolts. I mean we're talking about the staircase right, not the part of the building that actually holds up the entire structure. But I might be vastly overestimating this.

My previous appartment was in a 3-story building, and my impression was that the entire staircase was bolted together (and it was on the outside of the building).

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