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Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

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Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#51
This argument continues to come up, but I don't buy it- At least not without some data.

My personal anecdote: Facebook ads are the only online Ads I click with any regularity. They are targeted to my interests, such as programming. They also hit me at a time when I am mostly bored and clicking around on anything that interests me.

When I find myself on Google, I am on a mission for very specific information. Even if I am shopping, I do a research phase and a purchasing phase. Ads in the research phase don't woo me. I google straight to trusted sources. Once I'm in the purchase phase (shopping for best price), I am not wooed either because the ads are too broad. E.G, I want the D3100, not just any camera in general.

I completely understand Google's strategy of "intent" based ads. I just think Facebook's user data is even stronger.

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#53
post #32

There are two primary types of ads 1) ones that give you what you want 2) ones that drive demand Google dominates (1) and I assume Facebook is trying to dominate (2) which includes a lot more display advertising (and TV, and billboards). Facebook probably thinks a lot of demand-driving advertising can be accomplished through viral online marketing through FB platforms and they are likely trying to exploit these chann…

> 1) ones that give you what you want > 2) ones that drive demand

A big part of Google's success is that #1 is much easier to prove than #2.

"People bought our product more because they had become familiar with it over the last month via newspaper/radio/Facebook ads" is a hard-to-prove claim.

"We got X clicks from Google ads leading directly to Y purchases" is much easier.

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#54

But consider Facebook's "friction-less sharing". Facebook now knows you just listened to a song, read and article, took a trip, had a baby, got married.... Now think of the targeting you can get there.

You sell cars. I listen to Donovan, The Beatles, The Stone Roses, Mozart, Au, REM, Dj Shadow, Handsome Boy Modelling School, Chopin, Ludovico Einaudi and Daft Punk (to name but a few). I've liked pages for five star greek hotels, the burger place on the corner, the guy who sells awesome falafel's on Hoxton market. You know I saw this video of a talking dog that I thought was totally awesome. Just this month, I read a…

I would have liked your comment better if you hadn't given away what kinds of cars you like and made them guess.

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#55
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll do it as soon as they are confident that they can pay websites more per click than AdSense. It's a winner-take-all market. But AdSense is very vulnerable: intent (the search string), which is the one reason Google advertising works, is absent from AdSense. As an example, I once wrote a blog post with a title like "startup financing: take the elevator, not the stairs". Google placed ads on that post for Thysse…

Google uses search activity from the past several hours to help match ads in adsense for content[1]. Hiding those from other ad networks is, imo, one of the best reasons they should be sued for antitrust. We've recently started to expand the use of the query words in referral URLs to a few hours so we can so we can continue to deliver more relevant ads. The technical way that we're doing this is by associating the re…

That article doesn't discuss the details of the implementation, but it could very well be the Adsense js that is tagging the cookie with the referral data. Any ad network can implement that.

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#56
post #33
post #18

I agree with this and have posted numerous comments here to that effect, particularly on the value of intent (with respect to the effectiveness of online advertising). Th attitude of "eyeballs not revenue" and finding that repeatable, scalable formula are almost a religion on HN and in startups. It's generally a strategy I approve of. Even dropping 20% since the IPO (currently trading at just over $30 as I write this…

I'm confused over the significance of the P/E ratio. It seemed like a big deal when I was reading these stories about the FB IPO, but then I got to look at other ratios in tech. Amazon's is much higher than FB's 93.72 at 175.23 [0] [0]: http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:AMZN&authuser=0

P/E ratio is a terrible, meaningless way to evaluate the price of a share. It sounds remotely technical, and hey, there are numbers there so I guess people talk about it like it's important. P/E ratio is the ratio between profits to price per share. If the company had shares trading at $100 and their profits were $10/share, their P/E ratio would be 10. The thing is, P/E ratio doesn't capture expenditures very well, or long term corporate plans. So if a company is spending a ton of money trying to expand their business, they will have a really high P/E ratio. That doesn't make it a bad thing, just a measure of how much they're spending. AMZN is spending a ton of money lately, so they are not as profitable as they could be (and hence, high P/E ratio), but it is presumably to secure their future success.

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#57
post #49

Facebook's advertising model is a simple classical displaying advertising model. It need be disrupted seriously. Nowadays, the most popular marketing model is displaying advertising model, which is actually an attention-driven marketing model. However, no matter how good they are context-awared and personalized, they are always guesswork, which can hardly achieve high relevancy. It is extremely difficult to guess use…

Do you seriously believe advertisers waste trillions of dollars? That not a single one has turned off ads in a geo-fenced area to see what happens? Or that adwords advertisers (and all direct response advertisers for that matter) don't fanatically track roas? Also, empirically, users refuse to pay for stuff and want advertising so they're not out of pocket. For the 1e6 + 999th time: " If you are not paying for it, yo…

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half." --- John Wanamaker (1838 - 1922)

This is why advertising has been such a profitable business. That's because targeting of traditional advertising system is not good. As a result, traditional marketing has to be attention-driven. You have no better choice other than throwing trillions of dollars to attract attentions, and hopefully several percent of the attracted attentions will be finally converted to your new customers so that your business can continuously run. As a matter of fact, a huge amount of your marketing costs are completely wasted, and it is necessary due to low efficiency of the advertising model. This well-known fact is clearly shown that the low efficient classical display advertising model need be disrupted and replaced.

Fortunately, with the help of Internet and advancement of information processing technology, targeting will be significantly improved, and it has to be improved. However, it could not be attention-based, because attention is intrinsically low efficient on targeting. It has to be intention-based, which is intrinsically well targeted and accurate. For instance, with prior knowledge of your intention on buying some orange juice in front of a Trader Joe's, I will recommend you some good juices. It will be interesting information to me instead of advertisements. On the contrary, it will be totally annoying to me if you shout out at me about some high-end computers just because you know I'm a computer science student or a software programmer, but you don't know I just bought a super cool Macbook last week and don't need a new computer in next few months or even years.

To solve the targeting issue, intention-based marketing systems will be an ideal alternative to current dominant attention-driven marketing systems. Attracting attention is surely helpful. But it has to be complementary, not the primary driving force. It will be intention-based and intention-driven systems that can significantly improve targeting accuracy and marketing efficiency. That is the future!

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#58

Facebook's advertising model is a simple classical displaying advertising model. It need be disrupted seriously. Nowadays, the most popular marketing model is displaying advertising model, which is actually an attention-driven marketing model. However, no matter how good they are context-awared and personalized, they are always guesswork, which can hardly achieve high relevancy. It is extremely difficult to guess use…

How do you promote events in your non-bubble view of the world? An event can be in person (imagine TechCrunch Disrupt for instance), or a new TV series launching... I can imagine very well how I would target people who like the series 24 if I'm launching a new thriller. Or readers of Hacker News for a tech conference. Etc...

If we have such a system, everybody can input his/her intentions. I would input my intentions of attending startup events, and set the expiration date of this intention to for example 10 years. Then whenever there is an event like TechCrunch Disrupt, I will receive a notice with a short list of such events. All users who have set up similar intentions will receive such notice. Meanwhile, TechCrunch Disrupt organizers will receive a list of all users who have such similar intentions. As a result, they can directly send mails, or emails, or even phone calls to these users for highly targeted marketing instead of blindly broadcast their event to the whole general public.

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the preferences listed may not indicate a preference for Volvo over Audi, but they're certainly consistent with someone I'd target for near-luxury European cars rather than giant Chevy pickup trucks, Korean mini-vans or tiny econo-boxes. Daft Punk? You're 30-ish. Mozart and Chopin? College graduate. Like a 5-star Greek hotel (but not that many other luxury items)? Shit, I've narrowed down your disposable income…

> "I would target the shit out of you for Volvo, Volkswagen, Acura, Infiniti, Mercedes, BMW and Audi." And why not Lincoln, Cadillac, Lexus, Saab and Jaguar? In fact, Volkswagen isn't a luxury brand (no more than Honda, Nissan, Toyota), and hardly fits among the brands you mentioned above. Yet it's a preference of the OP. So, I think you've proven his point; your targeting hardly tells us anything.

Sure, maybe those too. Except perhaps Saab, which last I heard was broke, and Jaguar, which I'd probably target at a slightly older crowd.

Lincoln and Cadillac maybe not, too -- perhaps Americans who holiday in Europe are much more likely to buy European cars. If I had more data I could draw up some correlations and tell you exactly how much more likely they are to buy European cars and whether it's still worth waving a shiny new MKZ in front of our Volvo fan.

There's always exceptions to any of these correlations between stuff we like and other stuff we might like. In fact we're all exceptions; we all like things which are anticorrelated with other things we like. But that's not a big problem -- your targeting algorithm doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be significantly better than random scattershot... and ideally, better than Google.

In an ideal world, I'd only serve Acura ads to people who:

a) Are buying a new car soon

b) Are certain to buy an Acura if they see an ad for one, and

c) Are certain to not buy an Acura if they don't see an ad for one.

but failing that I'll settle for targeting people who are in vaguely the right age group and income bracket.

Actually, I think car sales are a bad example; if I wanted to sell cars I'd use google ads, because people buying a new car already know they're buying a new car, and are probably out there doing research on the subject of new cars. Whoever posted the milkshake example had the right idea for facebook ads.

Google ads can sell you stuff that you're looking for, Facebook ads (if implemented properly) can sell you stuff you don't yet know that you want.

Re: Facebook Advertising is Fool's Gold

#60
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google uses search activity from the past several hours to help match ads in adsense for content[1]. Hiding those from other ad networks is, imo, one of the best reasons they should be sued for antitrust. We've recently started to expand the use of the query words in referral URLs to a few hours so we can so we can continue to deliver more relevant ads. The technical way that we're doing this is by associating the re…

That article doesn't discuss the details of the implementation, but it could very well be the Adsense js that is tagging the cookie with the referral data. Any ad network can implement that.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Google is hiding referer data, particularly the query string, for a growing number of searchers. Today it's anyone logged into google, or about 60% of traffic to my blog. Tomorrow, they may well do it for anyone. Right now for the logged in users, and potentially in the future for anyone, the only ad network that can still see the search terms in the referer string is adsense, because Google search can pass them to adsense internally. No other ad network can see them. This is obviously incredibly valuable for adsense. And it should trigger an antitrust violation because they're using their monopoly / near monopoly in search to juice their offsite context and display ad networks.
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