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Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

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Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's been necessary to prove it because of politics This is fascinating to me, how political ideology models the same type of arms race as parasite or bacteria. We're at the point of the game that we deny the opponent's mere existence , as the arms race devolves beyond addressing or refuting their views. Why work in the logical axis, where "green" solutions can have a carbon impact themselves. Instead, wash them aw…

Well, it’s really clear that wind energy pollutes less than natural gas, per kwh generated, once the plant is built. So then we looked at the costs for building the plant, where wind won again. So now we’re looking at the costs of building the materials that go into building the plant (a “second-order” effect), where, shockingly, wind wins again… against simply running the gas plant, excluding its cost of constructio…

> wind energy pollutes

yes, it does. So the far right can use the same semantic arguments (redefining words) as the far left. "wind energy pollutes", that's enough (for them).

I'm not taking that position, just showing how dirty politics becomes when you stop using logic and just go for the jugular with opponents instead of engage with them on a fair level. Again, the ones who engage fairly will die off - figuratively or literally. It's an arms race, or (whatever biologists call it when two bacteria evolve defenses and kill each other).

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#142
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't built in a city, where most people will be staring at them. They are in remote areas. I'd also argue that they are awesome, quietly spinning giants in the distance. Although maybe that wears off if you constantly live near one. Cell towers and oil wells are allowed to be built wherever by a landowner and are both eyesores, yet were built anyway.

Does my not living in a city require that I change my sense of aesthetics? Is my sense of what is and isn't attractive required to be defined by where I live?

Continuing to live on earth requires everyone update their priorities

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#143
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't necessarily need fossil fuels for steel production. It is also nothing impossible in capturing CO2 from cement making - it's mainly centralized production and much simpler problem than transportation.

You do need a carbon source for steel production. It’s integral to steel. You don’t need coal per se, but you do need to burn carbon. Every technique so far will release some CO2 as a waste result.

The carbon needed for steel as an alloying element is a small fraction of the carbon needed for reduction of iron ore. The latter is replaceable with renewable energy (hydrogen or direct electrolytic reduction).

Also, note that 70% of steel production in the US isn't from ore at all, but is from scrap metal. Most of the steel used in renewable energy infrastructure will not be consumed, but will be recycled.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#144
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't necessarily need fossil fuels for steel production. It is also nothing impossible in capturing CO2 from cement making - it's mainly centralized production and much simpler problem than transportation.

You do need a carbon source for steel production. It’s integral to steel. You don’t need coal per se, but you do need to burn carbon. Every technique so far will release some CO2 as a waste result.

You can eliminate the vast majority of emissions by using hydrogen. Then the waste will be water instead of CO2. This is no longer hypothetical. Pilot plants have been successful enough that at least SSAB is investing billions into hydrogen-based steel production.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#145
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't necessarily need fossil fuels for steel production. It is also nothing impossible in capturing CO2 from cement making - it's mainly centralized production and much simpler problem than transportation.

You do need a carbon source for steel production. It’s integral to steel. You don’t need coal per se, but you do need to burn carbon. Every technique so far will release some CO2 as a waste result.

The steel industry is one of the largest emitters of CO2, contributing 6%–7% of global greenhouse gas emissions.

That said, there's a difference between sourcing that carbon from fossil fuels, carbon "new" to the current land|sea|atmosphere cycle having been drawn up from where it was sequestered millions of years past, and carbon that is already part of the surface dynamic.

Major steel players, those in the billion tonne per annum mining and processing chain, are already going hard at replacing current steel making with several alternatives and have already built pilot plants to trial low | zero "new carbon" production techniques.

eg: Rio's BioIron: https://www.riotinto.com/en/news/stories/decarbonising-steel...

is one such trial, IIRC that link mentions others.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do need a carbon source for steel production. It’s integral to steel. You don’t need coal per se, but you do need to burn carbon. Every technique so far will release some CO2 as a waste result.

The carbon needed for steel as an alloying element is a small fraction of the carbon needed for reduction of iron ore. The latter is replaceable with renewable energy (hydrogen or direct electrolytic reduction). Also, note that 70% of steel production in the US isn't from ore at all, but is from scrap metal. Most of the steel used in renewable energy infrastructure will not be consumed, but will be recycled.

> 70% of steel production in the US

For context, the US contributes less than 10% of the steel production of China to global crude steel production figures.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#147
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Wind can't be the entire solution" is such a different statement than whatever this misinformed smug dismissal is trying to get at.

If you were able to read the statement you would clearly see no such thing. Erecting more and more wind farms to make you feel fuzzy at night is absurd. We have the solution - metaphoric you just doesn't want it because reasons .

I'll totally admit wind farms make me feel fuzzy at night-- mostly because that's when they produce >50% of total power on the grid where I live.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#148
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of building washing machines, highways, etc. is not a cleaner environment. The point of windfarms is, but it defeats the purpose if producing them emits more carbon than they save.

It would defeat the purpose if windfarms made more pollution than they removed, but they don’t . By orders of magnitude. With current processes. They don’t .

Which is great, but the point is that we should "fret" about making sure that's the case.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#149
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the aesthetic argument entirely though. As your yourself said, some aesthetic concerns are dismissed because of utility, but not all of them can be. It's not a fiction that a large scale solar or wind farm will occupy more land than an equivalent gas or coal plant. So perhaps some of the concerns aren't quite so "status quo extremism" (lovely phrasing though, I'm going to be stealin…

These aren't built in a city, where most people will be staring at them. They are in remote areas. I'd also argue that they are awesome, quietly spinning giants in the distance. Although maybe that wears off if you constantly live near one. Cell towers and oil wells are allowed to be built wherever by a landowner and are both eyesores, yet were built anyway.

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Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#150
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> including the quantity needed Texas power has gone negative, CA has dropped to zero. That means power flowing on to the grid either has no where to go or is only being charged transmission fees (and those in CA are gonna be excessive). Transmission and storage are big issues. But they are solvable ones. Storage can be localize and the grid can be upgraded (and needs to be). Candidly we need to look for ways to dec…

California also experiences rolling blackouts each summer - and lately turns off the power when it's too hot, wind blows too hard, wind doesn't blow enough, etc. It's incredibly unreliable for biggest state in the union. But... we can sure pick a couple ultra-rare events and say "see, wind works" when it in fact does not.

> rolling blackouts each summer

We haven't had a rolling blackout since the early 2000 and Enron.

What we do have is decades of PGE not doing any work to maintain or upgrade their grid. Our power company is so incompetent it has a death toll.

Texas gets something like 24 percent of its power from wind. IT has now updated its rules to force all renewables to be ride through sources (this will add cost but it isnt going to slow things down).

Go take a deep dive into the numbers, you might be shocked at what you find.

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