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Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

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Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#101
post #87
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every one of these types of threads pulls out the pro-nuclear folks. I get that nuclear is really cool, but I don't get why anyone loves paying billions for projects that take 10+ years to complete. And sometimes they don't even complete! In the meantime you could've setup many different alternative energy solutions, not just wind, could've done it in the fraction of the time and probably under-budget.

These projects don't need to take 10+ years to complete, and don't need to cost what they cost. Decades of fearmongering and NIMBYISM have created an artificial environment.

Social licensing costs are just costs and won't go away just because you really really dislike them.

Besides, even if you could wave a magic wand and delete such costs, like the Chinese government can with their top down control of planning and media, it's still worse, as their revealed preferences demonstrate with their acceleration of renewables build-out and slowdown of nuclear build-out.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#102
post #99

At some point of transition the CO2 emissions drop to zero because all the energy at every stage comes from renewables. Solar can pay it's emissions cost back in 6 months but every solar panel company powers their factories with their own solar panels so in practice the practical emissions are reduced a lot and as mining adopts the new electric vehicles most things will tend towards almost nothing. The more renewable…

This is only true on the energy and transportation sides of emissions. Some processes like the creation of cement and refining of steel create CO2 through chemical processes, regardless of the energy source.

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Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to your point, albeit with a more frivolous example, wind power has been subject to tests for aesthetic satisfaction that never have to be passed with such regularity by, say, telephone wires, roads or sidewalks, other forms of electricity infrastructure, big box stores, oil and gas infrastructure, gas stations, etc. In some cases if you even ask the question you might be dismissed as a crank because, well, roads…

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the aesthetic argument entirely though. As your yourself said, some aesthetic concerns are dismissed because of utility, but not all of them can be. It's not a fiction that a large scale solar or wind farm will occupy more land than an equivalent gas or coal plant. So perhaps some of the concerns aren't quite so "status quo extremism" (lovely phrasing though, I'm going to be stealin…

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Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#104
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the aesthetic argument entirely though. As your yourself said, some aesthetic concerns are dismissed because of utility, but not all of them can be. It's not a fiction that a large scale solar or wind farm will occupy more land than an equivalent gas or coal plant. So perhaps some of the concerns aren't quite so "status quo extremism" (lovely phrasing though, I'm going to be stealin…

These aren't built in a city, where most people will be staring at them. They are in remote areas. I'd also argue that they are awesome, quietly spinning giants in the distance. Although maybe that wears off if you constantly live near one. Cell towers and oil wells are allowed to be built wherever by a landowner and are both eyesores, yet were built anyway.

> These aren't built in a city, where most people will be staring at them

No, we reserve our cities for these lovelies [1].

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/05/nyregion/nyc-5g-towers.ht...

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#106
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe 20 years ago. On-shore wind and solar are currently the cheapest practical way to make electricity based on LCOE. https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/aeo/electricity_generation/pdf/...

I'm not familiar with this metric but does it at least account for the cost that non-wind sources must incur to keep their facilities running? For example, if you have a wind farm you will prioritize using that energy when available, but the natural gas facility still needs to employ people for low wind situations right? So the natural gas facility is not generating very much most of the year, but still needs quite a…

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Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#107

Their OWN emissions? Wow...

There is still the problem of recycling the blades. https://theconversation.com/wind-turbine-blades-inside-the-b... .

This is basically an artificial concern. Waste from fossil fuel is massively more huge in scale - in my country we dump 12 million tonnes of toxic coal fly ash per year [1]. Wind turbine blades will never be anywhere near that order or magnitude… And that’s just the solid stuff you can see, not counting anything (like fine particulate matter, nitrous oxides, sulfur dioxide, etc.) put straight into the air burning coal, gas and oil…

1. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-10/coal-ash-has-become-o...

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#108
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transmission lines absolutely do make noise. Plenty of smaller scale power line elements can also hum. For anyone complaining about offshore wind (which is way the hell off in the distance) it may be worth considering that the alternative is those houses and beaches on the shore cease to exist in the future if we don't build the turbines.

> Transmission lines absolutely do make noise. Plenty of smaller scale power line elements can also hum. Maybe higher power ones can, but I’ve never had residential lines hum. And as for long distance transmission lines - even their noise is nothing compared to what a spinning blade on a wind turbine generates. You can find videos of the noise on YouTube. > For anyone complaining about offshore wind (which is way the…

  > There are many other variables like power sources (nuclear power for example)
The problem is that there aren't. You might be a wind NIMBY and nuclear YIMBY, but guess what, there's millions of nuclear NIMBYs ready to oppose whatever vision you personally hold.

The end result is permanent gridlock all in the name of preserving the subjective aesthetic preferences of a tiny handful of people. You can't run a society like this, you just can't.

At some point the urgent global concerns need to override sufficiently frivolous local concerns.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to your point, albeit with a more frivolous example, wind power has been subject to tests for aesthetic satisfaction that never have to be passed with such regularity by, say, telephone wires, roads or sidewalks, other forms of electricity infrastructure, big box stores, oil and gas infrastructure, gas stations, etc. In some cases if you even ask the question you might be dismissed as a crank because, well, roads…

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the aesthetic argument entirely though. As your yourself said, some aesthetic concerns are dismissed because of utility, but not all of them can be. It's not a fiction that a large scale solar or wind farm will occupy more land than an equivalent gas or coal plant. So perhaps some of the concerns aren't quite so "status quo extremism" (lovely phrasing though, I'm going to be stealin…

>a large scale solar or wind farm will occupy more land than an equivalent gas or coal plant

The land use talking point is so old that I remember hearing it in high school nearly 20 years ago. And the answer now is the same as the answer then, which is that this is not an apples to apples comparison. Windmills actually don't physically occupy something like 99% of the space over which they are distributed, and they are located so as not to interfere with other forms of land use, on land that wouldn't otherwise be used for something.

With solar panels it's a little bit more nuanced because apparently there have been some cases where land has been cleared to make space for panels, which is bad. I would like to think however that's unrepresentative, and the same thing is true of solar panels that they're located in ways that don't interfere with other forms of land use.

Even if wind and solar were not renewable these would still be distinctive advantages they have on the land use question. But if you throw all those nuances away and purely look at something like energy generation per square meter, it makes it look like there's some sort of losing proposition you have to worry about with solar and wind, even though there really isn't.

I do think it's fair to dismiss the aesthetic argument, because like so many other things in this thread, it's this dangling concern with an open unquantified implication for how significant it's supposed to be. That open-ended implication allows a skeptic to get away with implying that maybe it's a big problem without doing any of the work. In my opinion we are now far enough along into the renewable energy transition that this kind of rhetorical move should not be allowed, it should be considered poor form. You want to say it's a problem, that's fair and good, but how big of a problem? Are you at least interested in that kind of question or understand why it's important? What's the upshot? Is the idea that we abandon renewable energy altogether, do 5% less or something? Is it that we do exactly as much as before but we all just agree to be really careful? And why should I have to do your work for you of working through with the implication is supposed to be?

I think a lot of the problems with aesthetics are similar in that there are strategic ways to mitigate them, but perhaps more importantly I don't think that there are actually aesthetic problems here in the first place, and we seem to get along just fine without applying those standards to status quo infrastructure. But, here again, even if we agree that it's a problem, and did some sort of like economic analysis of the trade-off there, we would have to weigh that against the benefits of renewables writ large, are we looking at one penny of problem versus $1 of benefit? I suspect that that even would overstate the problem, but again, It's this unquantified open-ended implication that seems to be doing no work whatsoever to assess the relative scale of the problem and weigh it against the benefits brought by renewables.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#110

What's the embedded-energy cost in wind energy? https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2024/03/how-to-escape-from... My general argument is for us to convert far less energy in the first place, not to delude ourselves that we can tech our way into increasing our usage without significant environmental impact.

Is not the embedded energy basically what they’re looking at?

Anyway, we need more green electricity to convert less energy overall - for example since electrification means you can replace gas for things like heating and cooking, which with heat pumps and induction stoves can reduce the energy use by a half (for stoves) to a quarter vs. gas.

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