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Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

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Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#71
post #49

A conversation about second order effects against first order deliverables. This is proof of the obvious because very few people seriously believed their emission cost inputs exceeded their energy production, it's been necessary to prove it because of politics, not serious scientific questions to their aggregate burden. During early years on lower efficiency sure, it's possible wind and solar had higher input costs a…

And to your point, albeit with a more frivolous example, wind power has been subject to tests for aesthetic satisfaction that never have to be passed with such regularity by, say, telephone wires, roads or sidewalks, other forms of electricity infrastructure, big box stores, oil and gas infrastructure, gas stations, etc. In some cases if you even ask the question you might be dismissed as a crank because, well, roads…

I don't think it's fair to dismiss the aesthetic argument entirely though.

As your yourself said, some aesthetic concerns are dismissed because of utility, but not all of them can be. It's not a fiction that a large scale solar or wind farm will occupy more land than an equivalent gas or coal plant. So perhaps some of the concerns aren't quite so "status quo extremism" (lovely phrasing though, I'm going to be stealing that) as just realizing that we missed some things prior that actually mattered.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#72
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Massive on a personal scale but miniscule compared to the scale of oil production and combustion. So many people are worried about small scale downsides to technologies that are trying to address truly massive problems.

Right, and this is what makes it such a frivolous talking point. I mean, if it really were the case that the expenditures of oil were indeed at scales that overwhelmed any advantages of wind, that would be a legit argument. But to make that case you'd actually have to do the next step of assessing the relative scales of how much oil gets used in the creation of windmill components compared to an alternative case wher…

Well, also one can debunk these claims by just looking at the money.

If oil inputs were so massive, the cost of a turbine (or by implication the electricity it generates) should be MUCH higher. Just guessing, but probably orders of magnitude higher.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#73
post #44
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were able to read the statement you would clearly see no such thing. Erecting more and more wind farms to make you feel fuzzy at night is absurd. We have the solution - metaphoric you just doesn't want it because reasons .

I think it's fun to imagine that this solution you're miming at is closer to soylent green rather than only-viable-through-subsidies nuclear.

Every one of these types of threads pulls out the pro-nuclear folks. I get that nuclear is really cool, but I don't get why anyone loves paying billions for projects that take 10+ years to complete. And sometimes they don't even complete! In the meantime you could've setup many different alternative energy solutions, not just wind, could've done it in the fraction of the time and probably under-budget.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#74
post #49

A conversation about second order effects against first order deliverables. This is proof of the obvious because very few people seriously believed their emission cost inputs exceeded their energy production, it's been necessary to prove it because of politics, not serious scientific questions to their aggregate burden. During early years on lower efficiency sure, it's possible wind and solar had higher input costs a…

My concerns tend to be the cost in terms of land and intermittency that are harder to evaluate. Nevertheless, I believe we should not let the perfect (nuclear) be the enemy of the good (renewables), so your comments are welcome. We should neither fuss over the aesthetics of a solution nor obsess over the exact time at which it is strictly preferable to status quo on a very specific metric.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#75
At some point of transition the CO2 emissions drop to zero because all the energy at every stage comes from renewables. Solar can pay it's emissions cost back in 6 months but every solar panel company powers their factories with their own solar panels so in practice the practical emissions are reduced a lot and as mining adopts the new electric vehicles most things will tend towards almost nothing. The more renewables are adopted the shorter this emissions payback becomes. Manufacturing in the EU for example is about 55% renewables already.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#76
> “Although the carbon offset depends on the exact older technology the wind turbines are replacing, we would expect a similar offset internationally. In New Zealand it is gas turbines, but many countries will be displacing fossil fuel generators.

Aren’t gas turbines a type of fossil fuel generator?

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#77
post #49

A conversation about second order effects against first order deliverables. This is proof of the obvious because very few people seriously believed their emission cost inputs exceeded their energy production, it's been necessary to prove it because of politics, not serious scientific questions to their aggregate burden. During early years on lower efficiency sure, it's possible wind and solar had higher input costs a…

And to your point, albeit with a more frivolous example, wind power has been subject to tests for aesthetic satisfaction that never have to be passed with such regularity by, say, telephone wires, roads or sidewalks, other forms of electricity infrastructure, big box stores, oil and gas infrastructure, gas stations, etc. In some cases if you even ask the question you might be dismissed as a crank because, well, roads…

The thing I would be worried about is noise in otherwise serene areas. But I'm yet to see a wind farm in an area and think "bah, what a waste!" I'm usually pretty pleased by the sight of them. And if I'm going to be totally fair, I hate the noise from freeways, but I also don't like living that far away from them.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#78
post #49

A conversation about second order effects against first order deliverables. This is proof of the obvious because very few people seriously believed their emission cost inputs exceeded their energy production, it's been necessary to prove it because of politics, not serious scientific questions to their aggregate burden. During early years on lower efficiency sure, it's possible wind and solar had higher input costs a…

And to your point, albeit with a more frivolous example, wind power has been subject to tests for aesthetic satisfaction that never have to be passed with such regularity by, say, telephone wires, roads or sidewalks, other forms of electricity infrastructure, big box stores, oil and gas infrastructure, gas stations, etc. In some cases if you even ask the question you might be dismissed as a crank because, well, roads…

I don’t think you can dismiss the aesthetic concerns. Many people consider the natural beauty around them to be a core part of their living experience. Like with offshore wind farms - if you take coastlines and dot them with wind farms, it does hurt that beauty and experience in a meaningful way. And if you’ve been near them, they produce immense and constant noise that is hard to ignore. There will definitely be effects from that on marine life, as boat noise also affects them. Many of the things you listed like telephone wires or roads don’t make noise, so it’s not the same trade off, and they are in places we expect nature to be displaced.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#79
What's the embedded-energy cost in wind energy?

https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2024/03/how-to-escape-from...

My general argument is for us to convert far less energy in the first place, not to delude ourselves that we can tech our way into increasing our usage without significant environmental impact.

Re: Wind farms can offset their emissions within two years, new study shows

#80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And to your point, albeit with a more frivolous example, wind power has been subject to tests for aesthetic satisfaction that never have to be passed with such regularity by, say, telephone wires, roads or sidewalks, other forms of electricity infrastructure, big box stores, oil and gas infrastructure, gas stations, etc. In some cases if you even ask the question you might be dismissed as a crank because, well, roads…

The thing I would be worried about is noise in otherwise serene areas. But I'm yet to see a wind farm in an area and think "bah, what a waste!" I'm usually pretty pleased by the sight of them. And if I'm going to be totally fair, I hate the noise from freeways, but I also don't like living that far away from them.

I love driving by the actual farms that are also wind farms. There are a bunch of them driving between San Jose and LA - just endless huge fields of cabbage or whatever overseen by giant wind turbines.

Also seeing rows of them along ridgelines feels very cool.

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