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EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

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Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#51

Post by McDyver »

can16358p wrote: post #14

I don't get how exactly this is measured though. For many app projects, keeping the user in the app is obviously one of the most important metrics, especially for free apps (hence more ads to show and more money to make). Many UX patterns are fine tuned to keep people in more, which is perfectly understandable as the primary goal is to keep the user in. Now, who defines "addictive" using which aspect? And even if it…

This logic is akin to blaming the victim and removing all the responsibility from the perpretator.

Why not have the parents of the CEOs teach them that it's bad to make addictive products that have nefarious consequences to people and society?

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#52

Post by red_admiral »

can16358p wrote: post #14

I don't get how exactly this is measured though. For many app projects, keeping the user in the app is obviously one of the most important metrics, especially for free apps (hence more ads to show and more money to make). Many UX patterns are fine tuned to keep people in more, which is perfectly understandable as the primary goal is to keep the user in. Now, who defines "addictive" using which aspect? And even if it…

> Do we ban sugar, or regulate its consumption? No!

But we (in the UK) do tax it, which is arguably a form of regulation: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/soft-drinks-industry-levy... https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/sugar-ta...

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#53

Post by Levitz »

can16358p wrote: post #14

I don't get how exactly this is measured though. For many app projects, keeping the user in the app is obviously one of the most important metrics, especially for free apps (hence more ads to show and more money to make). Many UX patterns are fine tuned to keep people in more, which is perfectly understandable as the primary goal is to keep the user in. Now, who defines "addictive" using which aspect? And even if it…

This is completely backwards.

The parents are educated, they elected representatives and those representatives are pushing for this. Democratically elected officials aren't some otherworldly force, you argue that the people should act, this is the people acting.

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#54

Post by ceejayoz »

robertlagrant wrote: post #28
EMIRELADERO wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Haidt's work is... disputed, to say the least. https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-coddling-of-the-american-p...

Everyone's work is disputed. What in particular do you want to say that you disagree with in Heidt's work, and what's your justification?

The article seems to lay that out fairly effectively.

What in particular do you want to say that you disagree with in Masnick's work, and what's your justification?

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#55

Post by pjc50 »

anal_reactor wrote: post #44
can16358p wrote: post #14

I don't get how exactly this is measured though. For many app projects, keeping the user in the app is obviously one of the most important metrics, especially for free apps (hence more ads to show and more money to make). Many UX patterns are fine tuned to keep people in more, which is perfectly understandable as the primary goal is to keep the user in. Now, who defines "addictive" using which aspect? And even if it…

> Sugar is addictive. Do we ban sugar, or regulate its consumption? No! Instead we educate parents to limit their childrens' sugar intake. I wish things worked like that with cocaine

Can you imagine how much cocaine would be in energy drinks if that was legal (again)?

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#56

Post by pjc50 »

red_admiral wrote: post #48
EMIRELADERO wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Haidt's work is... disputed, to say the least. https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-coddling-of-the-american-p...

In principle, the truth could be either of a. social media is strongly positive for kids, and Haidt is at best cherry-picking evidence and at worst being actively dishonest. b. social media is strongly negative for kids, but there's lots of money involved and so people are trying to shut down anyone who says otherwise, just like the tobacco industry kept yelling "it's disputed! it's not proven!"

c. social media is negative and positive, probably averaging negative, but people writing pop-sci tend to be hacks. It's possible for someone to be directionally correct and all their evidence is garbage; a common problem in progressive social causes.

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#57

Post by throwaway924385 »

probably_wrong wrote: post #36
can16358p wrote: post #14

I don't get how exactly this is measured though. For many app projects, keeping the user in the app is obviously one of the most important metrics, especially for free apps (hence more ads to show and more money to make). Many UX patterns are fine tuned to keep people in more, which is perfectly understandable as the primary goal is to keep the user in. Now, who defines "addictive" using which aspect? And even if it…

I would argue that apps resemble gambling more than they resemble sugar. And gambling is banned for children and heavily regulated for adults. More to the point, I don't think it's fair to call parents stupid. Even if parenting weren't hard (which it is) it is not fair to expect everyone to get a Bachelor's in Software Engineering to use the one device that's almost indispensable for daily life. Nor is it fair to exp…

Right. Social media companies explicitly use the same addictive psychological reward mechanisms that are leveraged by companies that make slot machines.

https://ihpi.umich.edu/news/social-media-copies-gambling-met...

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#58

Post by JeanMarcS »

b800h wrote: post #41
bozey07 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is. What does Meta's annual revenue have to do with a parent's ability to say "no, you can't install Instagram"? Because that's the crux of the issue; children should not have access to social media, and the solution is not to weave intricate legislation regulating the entire industry, or obliging me to hand over my ID, it is for parents to not give children access to social media.

Do you want your child to be the social pariah in the class?

This exactly.

When our kids reached 12, they were almost the only ones in their class to not have a smartphone, nor any social media.

So what to do ?

Trying by ourselves to educate every parents whom made bad decisions letting their children get access to social media way too early ?

Continue holding to our valor and isolate them from any outside school social interaction with their schoolmate ?

Bend the knee to the power of social media that have rotten our society so deep, and let our kids use WhatsApp to communicate with their mates ?

Of course, in my ideal world, it would be the first option. But I've tried and failed (may be I'm not a good talker ?) so many times that I gave up.

So if any government rule was made to protect my kids and protecting other's ones, well I'll sure want a debate on it. And a people debate, not a lobbyist one of course.

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#59

Post by guappa »

can16358p wrote: post #14

I don't get how exactly this is measured though. For many app projects, keeping the user in the app is obviously one of the most important metrics, especially for free apps (hence more ads to show and more money to make). Many UX patterns are fine tuned to keep people in more, which is perfectly understandable as the primary goal is to keep the user in. Now, who defines "addictive" using which aspect? And even if it…

> but they are probably perfectly okay

Most are not, but at a certain age kids will have enormous social pressure from their peers to do that, and will relentlessly ask for that.

And sometimes you tell them "fine, just finish your homework before" or something like that.

Re: EU opens child safety probes of Facebook and Instagram, citing addictive design

#60

Post by throwaway22032 »

There needs to be a recognition that giving developing minds devices that are capable of unrestricted access to information is not ideal because it makes parenting impossible.

This needs to be tackled at every level. If schools are expecting kids to do everything on tablets then that needs to be scrapped.

Most of us have tremendously successful careers in software off the back of pen and paper maths textbooks.

I firmly believe the issue is that society has rapidly switched into expecting everyone to use computers and if you don't want to you're just locked out.

There's no need for it to be this way.

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