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How to get 7th graders to smoke

experimental-history.com

201–210 of 263 posts

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#201

Contrarian view - the programs are working. Rates of smoking among teens over the past three decades: Ever used nicotine: 70.1% in 1991 to 17.8% in 2021; Occasional use of nicotine: 27.5% in 1991 to 3.8% in 2021; Frequent use of nicotine: 12.7% to 0.7%; Daily use of nicotine: 9.8% in 1991 to 0.6% in 2021 https://www.fau.edu/newsdesk/articles/teen-cigarette-smoking... I suspect the same can be said for workplace sexua…

It seems more plausible (to me) that this is the result of the cultural 'quarantine' of smoking and not the efficacy of the "don't smoke" programs in schools per se. The entertainment industry in the US aggressively committed to not showing cigarettes in a cool or positive light, and to me this seems way more likely to have driven these reductions in youth smoking. In the 80s pretty much any person a 13 year old would call 'cool' could be seen smoking somewhere. Now media uses cigarettes to either indicate that a movie is happening in the past or that a character is self-destructive. With the cultural cachet gone, or greatly reduced, I think what you're seeing is mostly 'background' smoking rates: kids smoking specifically for the effects of nicotine, or because it's a taboo-breaking behavior. Not because their parents and every celebrity smoke. This dynamic also explains the rise of e-cigs, IMO. Kids love streamers and influencers, and streamers and influencers vape nic. Now kids vape nic.

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#202
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDMA overdoses are almost certainly all cross-contamination with fentanyl.

Here’s 2 MDMA deaths that aren’t: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22640978/ From one rave “Twelve patients with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) toxicity from a single rave event presented to multiple San Francisco Bay area hospitals with various life-threatening complications including seizures and hyperthermia. Eight required emergent endotracheal intubation and six had hypotension. Hyperkalemia, acute kidn…

"Large dose" doesn't mean the same thing as "overdose". For context, the LD50 for MDMA is 160 mg/kg for rats.

MDMA screws up the body's ability to regulate temperature. But without the warm environment and physical activity leading to hyperthermia, I can't imagine any of those people would have even needed medical attention.

That said, personally I would never call MDMA "the poster child for safe illegal drugs". Just because it won't kill you, doesn't mean it is safe or risk-free.

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#203
It's definitely hard to change people, but I also think to some extent it's extremely easy if you know what you're doing and you're specific about the context. As the author notes: cults are really good at it. Another example is any entertainment performer, or even just a DJ: getting a crowd from one state ("cold") to another state ("hot") is well-understood game.

On the other hand scientists seem to be very bad at it (if the last few decades of quantitative social science research are any indicator). My pet hypothesis is that this is because an experimental environment is actually a very bad way to reason about human behavior. When you're dealing with basic material phenomena (particles, energy, chemical reactions, even biological reactions to a certain extent) the behavior is 'isolatable'. It will happen in a predictable way under controlled conditions, and removing outside influences makes that behavior easier to observe. Human behavior is the exact opposite of 'isolatable' though: so much of what makes us act the way we do is the influence of outside factors. In a general sense I don't even think it really makes sense to imagine a 'single person' or 'isolated behavior', our mind exists in mutual definition with the social world around us. Indeed the successful examples I listed above are successful precisely because they take control of your environment: a secluded meditation area or a sweaty club are critical tools for changing the way someone is.

As a result I think scientists often have a really skewed understanding of what motivates people, because anything they do in a controlled environment basically can never generalize by definition. Want to get kids to stop smoking? Don't treat the kids, treat the media environment they live in. But this isn't something that can be replicated in a generic/engineering/scientific manner; there's no magic recipe it's just common sense and coalition building (getting buy-in from the people who make media). But because these tools don't fit cleanly into an experimental framework they kind of get sidelined. Instead we get endless variations on nudge theory and little cognitive games to try and induce the behavior we want. Shockingly this fails time and time again. Preventing sexual harassment in the workplace simply cannot come from a PowerPoint deck or training, it will only follow from a massive overhaul in the cultural milleu. Look at any successful grassroots political movement: find people who are primed to receive your message; convince them to support you; use their support and evangelism to widen the circle to the next group of slightly less-primed people; repeat until massive; force structural/cultural change through a crush of bodies. Simple as.

edit: hm okay I clicked one link in the OP and it seems this point is not very original https://www.vitalcitynyc.org/articles/its-hard-to-change-peo...

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#204

It's definitely hard to change people, but I also think to some extent it's extremely easy if you know what you're doing and you're specific about the context. As the author notes: cults are really good at it. Another example is any entertainment performer, or even just a DJ: getting a crowd from one state ("cold") to another state ("hot") is well-understood game. On the other hand scientists seem to be very bad at i…

I really like your illustrative example and to me it points at the fundamental core problem of the idea of "social science" to me -- it's not that the structured anthropological inquiry is a misguided ambitions, nor that scientific methods are misguided, but that the two are, to some extent, intrinsically at odds with one another because of practical limitations to isolate factors within or to create in a controlled environment a natural social setting.

To your point, the DJ (and I would say many performance artists) has a practice for how to make this occur in a repeatable manner, but the practice is an artistic practice and therein a cultural practice, not a conventional scientific practice. To me, it raises the question of whether for the goals of any kind of "social science" to come to fruition if it must become an artistic practice. I don't have a great answer to this question but you can probably tell in which direction I lean.

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#205
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it referred to the smoke from their engines? They were the only ones in that world who used internal combustion engines?

It's kind of both. For some strange reason I watched that movie again recently. I guess they were supposed to be the distilled version of whatever was considered bad in society in the 90s: hyper-masculinity, smoking, oil tankers, guns, religion (they went on "crusades", the leader was "The Deacon") etc.

Aren't all these things ± still what's considered bad in 2024?

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#206
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s 2 MDMA deaths that aren’t: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22640978/ From one rave “Twelve patients with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) toxicity from a single rave event presented to multiple San Francisco Bay area hospitals with various life-threatening complications including seizures and hyperthermia. Eight required emergent endotracheal intubation and six had hypotension. Hyperkalemia, acute kidn…

"Large dose" doesn't mean the same thing as "overdose". For context, the LD50 for MDMA is 160 mg/kg for rats. MDMA screws up the body's ability to regulate temperature. But without the warm environment and physical activity leading to hyperthermia, I can't imagine any of those people would have even needed medical attention. That said, personally I would never call MDMA "the poster child for safe illegal drugs". Just…

If you’re suffering significant medical issues from taking excessive amounts of a drug, that’s called an overdose.

More broadly, I’m including traffic fatalities as a risk from alcohol and falls under LSD, so having deadly issues regulating body temperature definitely qualifies in an apples to apples comparison here.

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#207
I think the absolute best anti-drug program is volunteering for homeless outreach programs. You'll see the level of f'd up that a lot of people will go to and through in order to get and keep taking drugs. It also helps to humanize drug victims and homelessness.

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#208

It's definitely hard to change people, but I also think to some extent it's extremely easy if you know what you're doing and you're specific about the context. As the author notes: cults are really good at it. Another example is any entertainment performer, or even just a DJ: getting a crowd from one state ("cold") to another state ("hot") is well-understood game. On the other hand scientists seem to be very bad at i…

I really like your illustrative example and to me it points at the fundamental core problem of the idea of "social science" to me -- it's not that the structured anthropological inquiry is a misguided ambitions, nor that scientific methods are misguided, but that the two are, to some extent, intrinsically at odds with one another because of practical limitations to isolate factors within or to create in a controlled…

Damn you said exactly what I wanted to say but way more concisely haha.

> To me, it raises the question of whether for the goals of any kind of "social science" to come to fruition if it must become an artistic practice.

“Artistic practice” is absolutely what I think the field is missing, and which many other disciplines with similar concerns (ex. marketing) are way more enthusiastic to incorporate. And thats not just about getting social scientists to start painting or whatever, but more adopting that mindset of an artist trying to perfect their craft. The basic program for the performing artist is to bomb over and over again until you can change people’s behavior “by feel” (or maybe you never develop the knack and change careers). Politicians similarly start out by pressing the flesh and going to endless community meetings until they figure out how to move a crowd. Doing these things isn’t “hard” once you’ve figured out the trick, but it’s a skill that you acquire by extensive practice and apply by intuition/artistic judgment, rather than something that you can figure out solely through sufficiently rigorous analytics. Not to say that this isn’t experimentation, it absolutely is, but it’s not laboratory experimentation, it’s fully integrated within the real world.

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#209
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Large dose" doesn't mean the same thing as "overdose". For context, the LD50 for MDMA is 160 mg/kg for rats. MDMA screws up the body's ability to regulate temperature. But without the warm environment and physical activity leading to hyperthermia, I can't imagine any of those people would have even needed medical attention. That said, personally I would never call MDMA "the poster child for safe illegal drugs". Just…

If you’re suffering significant medical issues from taking excessive amounts of a drug, that’s called an overdose. More broadly, I’m including traffic fatalities as a risk from alcohol and falls under LSD, so having deadly issues regulating body temperature definitely qualifies in an apples to apples comparison here.

> If you’re suffering significant medical issues from taking excessive amounts of a drug, that’s called an overdose.

Again, no, that San Francisco situation is strictly not describing an overdose. From the comfort of your living room, you can consume a massively higher amount of MDMA than what was described in that paper, and won't suffer significant medical issues.

> I’m including traffic fatalities as a risk from alcohol

OK, but that doesn't mean a drunk-driving fatality is an overdose on alcohol.

Re: How to get 7th graders to smoke

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is where LSD gets interesting. No, LSD won't kill your body. But what are you ? You aren't just your body, you are your mind and mental state and the consistency of that. Do enough LSD, especially consistent high doses, and the "you" you know will die and be permanently replaced by something else. I of course agree that LSD won't put you in a coffin. But there are more axes upon which a drug's danger should…

And if I try to change your mind about how much it matters to get a new perspective and new evaluation on some things, I might murder you. A conundrum.

Personal anecdote: I used to do a decent amount of LSD (~150ug every 4-5 months for ~3 years), until one time I had an extremely bad trip. Ever since that bad trip, I've found that every time I get high (from LSD, mushrooms, or even marijuana) I start having extreme anxiety to the point where I can't enjoy it anymore and am just waiting for it to end. The bad trip was now 8 years ago and to this day I've not had a great experience on any of the above drugs since then.

I consider myself lucky that the anxiety only shows up when on drugs, which is pretty easy to avoid by, y'know, not doing drugs. But clearly something permanently shifted inside my brain.

The inability to experience something I used to enjoy without a near-panic-attack is a bit more of an effect than a conversation might have.

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