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Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

leviathansecurity.com

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Re: Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

#231

Post by sigmoid10 »

yaris wrote: post #169
sigmoid10 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also happened with providers in Europe. So you can safely assume that any VPN provider who is still doing business in Europe is compromised in some way or another by the government.

"Compromised" is a wrong word to use, unless you consider any obedience to the law "compromise". VPN providers who are still doing business in EU (not Europe) do obey court orders - that would be more correct wording. Any non-compliance is a one-time occurence: either you decide to cease operations or you are forced to cease operations by LEA, as in vpnlab.net example.

If you actually look at the vpnlab example, you'll find that the government got access to all their data, not just for specific cases. So you can assume that all remaining providers have yielded the same level of access.

Re: Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

#232

Post by CRConrad »

DEADMINCE wrote: post #221
berkes wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe what I wrote. Do note that this applies to Western Europe (more precisely: the Netherlands). And do note that "to be f#ed over" is rather broad and personal. While one person might feel they are truly "f#d" by police" when they get a ticket driving their bike without lights at night, that's obviously not what I mean. I am by conviction an Anarchist (though certainly not libertarian), and I do see the times…

> those are cases where the government, through democratic mandate, made (extremely) bad laws Yes, due to democracy. You think more democracy is the answer?

Yes, because those cases are fortunately rather few. And usually (far!) fewer than in places with less democracy. So it seems plausible that they were caused by not enough (or otherwise "bad") democracy, not too much of it.

Re: Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

#233

Post by jkaplowitz »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #224
jkaplowitz wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what things you think are likely to be true in secret or judicially determined in the future without an intervening legislative change. My impression of the law in most Western countries is that the courts would overturn any requirement to compel a company to affirmatively lie to the public through explicit speech of some kind, even in the national security context. Orders compelling silence or non-removal…

>My impression of the law in most Western countries Apparently you still didn't get it, so let me spell it out: Your entire point hinges on your own impression that your government won't abuse its power. An impression that will always be heavily influenced by PR and propaganda, no matter where you live - and one that seems eerily off considering the fact how often surveillance programs and attempts at destroying what…

You’re assuming a lot of inaccurate things about my beliefs. I do not have blind trust in my government or other Western governments. In, fact, I expect them to actively abuse their power in myriad ways, many of which try to destroy privacy. I didn’t say otherwise; indeed, if I were to assume that the government would never try to compel affirmative lies, I would have never needed to discuss how the courts would react to such an attempt.

I don’t think it will be productive to continue this subthread if doing so would be as focused on clarifying misunderstandings as this exchange was, so do not be surprised if this ends up as my last reply in this subthread.

Re: Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

#235

Post by DEADMINCE »

CRConrad wrote: post #232
DEADMINCE wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those are cases where the government, through democratic mandate, made (extremely) bad laws Yes, due to democracy. You think more democracy is the answer?

Yes, because those cases are fortunately rather few. And usually (far!) fewer than in places with less democracy. So it seems plausible that they were caused by not enough (or otherwise "bad") democracy, not too much of it.

I absolutely think they were caused by too much democracy. Most people are not equipped and may never be so to vote or have a say on the most important issues. They need to be managed by those that are capable.

Re: Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

#236

Post by DEADMINCE »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #230
DEADMINCE wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue here is that how "illegal" something is depends heavily on where you live. The context of the discussion was the EU. And the point stands. For 99% of people VPNs offer privacy even against the government, that would need to meet a high burden of proof and require a warrant to break that privacy.

I said nothing that goes against the context. Again: When you are actually scared of getting cought for something, a commercial VPN very likely doesn't help. That goes for all jurisdictions.

> I said nothing that goes against the context.

You mentioned the EU as a whole but the point is it isn't and is indeed widely varied when it comes to the sorts of laws you are relying on to make your argument.

Re: Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

#237

Post by ang_cire »

DEADMINCE wrote: post #219
ang_cire wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*Tunneling* it through one hides the nature of that traffic from intermediary systems that it traverses from you up to that VPN exit point. There is a lot of metadata in packets that can be viewed by any interim hop, like your ISP, workplace IT security, ARP-cache-poisoned coffeeshop router, etc.

> ARP-cache-poisoned coffeeshop router, etc. Eh, that's not really a thing anymore.

Not for Starbucks, who does fancy per-user VLANs, but for your local spot that's using an AP-router-combo they bought at Best buy, it sure is.

Re: Attackers can decloak routing-based VPNs

#238

Post by CRConrad »

DEADMINCE wrote: post #235
CRConrad wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because those cases are fortunately rather few. And usually (far!) fewer than in places with less democracy. So it seems plausible that they were caused by not enough (or otherwise "bad") democracy, not too much of it.

I absolutely think they were caused by too much democracy. Most people are not equipped and may never be so to vote or have a say on the most important issues. They need to be managed by those that are capable.

> I absolutely think they were caused by too much democracy. Most people are not equipped and may never be so to vote or have a say on the most important issues. They need to be managed by those that are capable.

Said all fascists and communists everywhere ever.

Oh, and probably all the Ayn-Randian libertariards too.

Which of all those are you?

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