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Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

smithsonianmag.com

11–20 of 104 posts

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#11

>> One had 380 micrograms of lead per gram of hair, while the other had 258 micrograms. For reference, a normal level of lead in a gram of hair is around 4 micrograms or less. His hair also had 13 times the normal level of arsenic, and four times the normal level of mercury. What is "normal"? Normal for now, or normal for the 17th century? Looking at the hair and makeup regimes of the wealthy, they were all probably…

I mean, did anyone survive those times?

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#12
post #5
post #2

>“This man created some of the most beautiful music humanity was able to produce,” Rifai adds. “It was so incredibly tragic that he couldn’t hear this majestic music that he created.” I wonder if his deafness helped him create that music.

I'm sure that he heard his majestic music in his head as he was composing it.

there are people without an inner monologue, that little voice inside your head. If you don't have that voice then i wonder if you can imagine or hear music inside your head like you would "that little voice".

edit: here's a old article about people who lack an inner monologue https://www.iflscience.com/people-with-no-internal-monologue...

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#13

Just curious how do modern humans compare. I think most people have this notion that sewage treatment removes everything. I know the local creek that the local water treatment plant empties out into, and the creek smells like sewage. The water intake is maybe km away down river. Aside from obvious chemicals like paint that people might flush. All kinds of medical/drug chemicals they're on are also peed out as well. A…

I think we tend to have a lot less heavy metal poisoning in general than we did at different times in the past.

It's only fairly recently that we realized how dangerous these metals are and started removing them from things like plumbing (that word comes from french/latin for lead), fuels, paints, even eating-wares.

I think north america was using leaded gasoline up until the end of the 70s or so.

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#14
post #13

Just curious how do modern humans compare. I think most people have this notion that sewage treatment removes everything. I know the local creek that the local water treatment plant empties out into, and the creek smells like sewage. The water intake is maybe km away down river. Aside from obvious chemicals like paint that people might flush. All kinds of medical/drug chemicals they're on are also peed out as well. A…

I think we tend to have a lot less heavy metal poisoning in general than we did at different times in the past. It's only fairly recently that we realized how dangerous these metals are and started removing them from things like plumbing (that word comes from french/latin for lead), fuels, paints, even eating-wares. I think north america was using leaded gasoline up until the end of the 70s or so.

At least until the mid-late 80's. My roommate had a 71 Dodge Challenger and it was only around '89 or so that it became harder for him to find the leaded gas it needed in the NYC area.

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#15
post #2

>“This man created some of the most beautiful music humanity was able to produce,” Rifai adds. “It was so incredibly tragic that he couldn’t hear this majestic music that he created.” I wonder if his deafness helped him create that music.

Possibly. You can often tell when a piece was composed based on how much he uses the low octaves. Some of his lower pitched works are because he could still hear those notes well.

You can notice this in his 7th symphony for example. https://youtu.be/Qu_kAWCKSo8?si=swCapaFJM9CwYwWV

This movement is incredible because it’s so simple. It’s basically beginner piano. And yet it’s overflowing with emotion.

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#17
"It was so incredibly tragic that he couldn’t hear this majestic music that he created."

He couldn't physically hear the performance of it, but it's possible he could "hear" what it would sound like - and he very possibly heard it in his head before writing a single note down on paper (or however he recorded his music).

I'm not sure everyone has this ability, but whenever I've written/recorded music, I almost literally hear it before I even try to create it or play it. My memory of sound is REALLY strong. I've never had someone go "oh yeah, me too!" when I discuss this though, so I have no idea if it's a common thing or what. It's like borderline hallucination, the clarity with which I can recall music and sound. I would wager that a lot of composers over the years have had this ability, especially since you couldn't exaclty spin up an orchestra in your livingroom while composing an operatic piece in 1800 :)

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#18
post #12
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that he heard his majestic music in his head as he was composing it.

there are people without an inner monologue, that little voice inside your head. If you don't have that voice then i wonder if you can imagine or hear music inside your head like you would "that little voice". edit: here's a old article about people who lack an inner monologue https://www.iflscience.com/people-with-no-internal-monologue...

Yes, there are people who can hear music in their head but it is necessary not related to having the inner monologue.

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#19

"It was so incredibly tragic that he couldn’t hear this majestic music that he created." He couldn't physically hear the performance of it, but it's possible he could "hear" what it would sound like - and he very possibly heard it in his head before writing a single note down on paper (or however he recorded his music). I'm not sure everyone has this ability, but whenever I've written/recorded music, I almost literal…

My son is a composer, and he told me that he doesn't even need a keyboard any more, when he composes (he composes on paper, then transfers it to music notation software when it's ready to distribute).

He also, sometimes, has a photographic memory for music. In university he had a listening test on a piece of classical music. He was able to visualize the score that he had studied when in high school, and identify the types and numbers of instruments.

Re: Researchers find high levels of lead, mercury and arsenic in Beethoven's hair

#20
I'm quite confused. I learned 20+ years ago that lead poisining from the wine was the cause, or at least the suspected cause of Beethovens deafness. It's great that they found lead in his hair (again?), but thoroughly weird that they don't mention that it was the go-to theory already.

On a large tangent, I tried asking GPT-4o to check the article whether it mentions that previously that theory already existed (could have overlooked it). GPT-4o confidently made up a complete quote from the article, then doubled down after I said I couldn't find the quote, and finally reversed its opinion 180 degrees. It's of course much too early to tell, but my feeling from a handful queries has been that GPT-4o hallucinates quite a bit more than GPT-4.

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