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Why I Hate Test Driven Development

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Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#21

Post by jsprinkles »

justinjlynn wrote: post #17
jsprinkles wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I debug because I'm smart, and I enjoy it, and I frequently find bugs that I didn't know existed by seeing inside a frame as it's executing. Debugging is a crucial skill in many fields, particularly embedded work (which is the irony in your comment), and the insight from breakpoints and a couple afternoons of digging is unique among our tools. I hate sweeping generalizations of how programming should be done, regardl…

I've learned that one must ensure one doesn't confuse love of the results given by a thing or action with the love of the thing or action which gets you those results. You're a seasoned debugger if you can successfully debug a complex system, but you're a wise developer if you can do the things which ensure you don't have to do so.

I can't imagine a scenario, throughout history or today, in which debugging would be unnecessary. It's wisdom to realize that, and more wisdom to realize that "debugging" is a nebulous term here that people are nailing down in different ways.

Test-driven development will never replace debugging, and saying otherwise implies a misunderstanding of one of them.

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#22

Post by binspace »

pthread wrote: post #16
jsprinkles wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I debug because I'm smart, and I enjoy it, and I frequently find bugs that I didn't know existed by seeing inside a frame as it's executing. Debugging is a crucial skill in many fields, particularly embedded work (which is the irony in your comment), and the insight from breakpoints and a couple afternoons of digging is unique among our tools. I hate sweeping generalizations of how programming should be done, regardl…

If you love debugging, I don't think you're a seasoned or valuable programmer.

If you like to code, you are not a seasoned programmer.

I don't like coding. I like telling programmers what to do, thus I'm the boss 0:-)

Ooh, and I also like to spout out long-winded war stories. Who's your daddy?

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#23

Post by begriffs »

Reminds me of what Edsger Dijkstra wrote, "Let me start with a well-established fact: by and large the programming community displays a very ambivalent attitude towards the problem of program correctness. A major part of the average programmer's activity is devoted to debugging, and from this observation we may conclude that the correctness of his programs —or should we say: their patent incorrectness?— is for him a matter of considerable concern. I claim that a programmer has only done a decent job when his program is flawless and not when his program is functioning properly only most of the time. But I have had plenty of opportunity to observe that this suggestion is repulsive to many professional programmers: they object to it violently! Apparently, many programmers derive the major part of their intellectual satisfaction and professional excitement from not quite understanding what they are doing. In this streamlined age, one of our most under-nourished psychological needs is the craving for Black Magic, and apparently the automatic computer can satisfy this need for the professional software engineers, who are secretly enthralled by the gigantic risks they take in their daring irresponsibility. They revel in the puzzles posed by the task of debugging. They defend —by appealing to all sorts of supposed Laws of Nature— the right of existence of their program bugs, because they are so attached to them: without the bugs, they feel, programming would no longer be what is used to be! (In the latter feeling I think —if I may say so— that they are quite correct.)" -- From EWD288

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#24

Post by [deleted] »

pthread wrote: post #20
nsmartt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To love debugging is to not love to code. Honestly, I want to sound rude, so I'm going to. Who the hell are you to tell me what I love or don't love?

Who the hell are you to feel like you have the right to not be offended? Nobody is telling you what to do, get over yourself.

[deleted]

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#25

Post by [deleted] »

begriffs wrote: post #23

Reminds me of what Edsger Dijkstra wrote, "Let me start with a well-established fact: by and large the programming community displays a very ambivalent attitude towards the problem of program correctness. A major part of the average programmer's activity is devoted to debugging, and from this observation we may conclude that the correctness of his programs —or should we say: their patent incorrectness?— is for him a…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#26

Post by jsprinkles »

begriffs wrote: post #23

Reminds me of what Edsger Dijkstra wrote, "Let me start with a well-established fact: by and large the programming community displays a very ambivalent attitude towards the problem of program correctness. A major part of the average programmer's activity is devoted to debugging, and from this observation we may conclude that the correctness of his programs —or should we say: their patent incorrectness?— is for him a…

Next, tell us why goto is bad.

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#27

Post by binspace »

jsprinkles wrote: post #26
begriffs wrote: post #23

Reminds me of what Edsger Dijkstra wrote, "Let me start with a well-established fact: by and large the programming community displays a very ambivalent attitude towards the problem of program correctness. A major part of the average programmer's activity is devoted to debugging, and from this observation we may conclude that the correctness of his programs —or should we say: their patent incorrectness?— is for him a…

Next, tell us why goto is bad.

Humor in programming considered hardful.

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#28

Post by begriffs »

[deleted] wrote: post #25
begriffs wrote: post #23

Reminds me of what Edsger Dijkstra wrote, "Let me start with a well-established fact: by and large the programming community displays a very ambivalent attitude towards the problem of program correctness. A major part of the average programmer's activity is devoted to debugging, and from this observation we may conclude that the correctness of his programs —or should we say: their patent incorrectness?— is for him a…

[deleted]

It's interesting that the author wrote the article ironically, but that it still kind of resonates with what Dijkstra observed. Every joke has a kernel of truth.

Re: Why I Hate Test Driven Development

#30

Post by johnl87 »

Debugging is not fun when your program is leaking memory and you're not sure why, and existing code tools don't tell you why. Especially if you're writing drivers. Sure, stepping through python code might be fun, but not low level c/c++ code where you're in a call stack that's 20 levels deep and half the time you don't have source for the parts the code breaks or asserts on.
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