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It’s an age of marvels

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Re: It’s an age of marvels

#391
post #177

A related thought-exercise I sometimes engage in, inspired by Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" is this: Ok, so I have a university education and know lots about computers. If I traveled back to the Middle Ages -- actually, make it the (inaccurately named) Dark Ages or even more ancient times, say the Roman Republic -- how much of my modern day knowledge would I be able to use to impress the…

You may enjoy the novel "Lest Darkness Fall" by L. Sprague de Camp, who explored this idea back in 1939.

Thanks for the recommendation! It seems I will enjoy it; it belongs in the same theme as Mark Twain's novel, only it's not humorous.

On that note, Wikipedia took me to "The Man Who Came Early" by Poul Anderson, which fits what I'm saying exactly: a modern day man is taken back to Viking-age Iceland, where his knowledge fails him catastrophically as he is unable to explain it or put it into practice, to disastrous results.

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#392
post #23

More than anything else, I think the modern American super market would blow the minds of anyone born before 1900 more than any other marvel that exists. You have blueberries for sale in January??? A variety box of tea from 7 different countries? A wall of spices? Pineapples? Packaging made from aluminum that is just thrown away? The bread isn't full of sand and grit? And it's sliced!!! All relatively affordable and…

> The bread isn't full of sand and grit? And it's sliced!!!

I agree with you on the other points but this. People too often try to make the present look better by hyper focusing on bad things in the past.

Bread was sometimes adulterated with sand or sawdust, but it was not the norm.

I don't think that a past peasant (who would bake his own bread and eat it fresh out of the oven) would be impressed by supermarket bread. People who think sliced bread is good have never tasted real bread.

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#393
We've convinced sand and various metals, at the nano-scale level, to allow us to remotely view - in real-time - things that are out of sight.

Time-machine back to 1900 and tell someone that. You'd be burnt at the stake as a witch (not really, but you'd sound insane).

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those people are all from the 20th century, historically speaking still quite recent and relatable. I think you'd be hard-pressed to pluck anyone from a truly different time/place (relative to the modern west) and have their moral standards hold up to modern scrutiny, and if you could they'd be a notable exception and not the rule

Well, you have Richelieu's famous quote about six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men and whatnot, but let's just say I think you're wrong. You're simultaneously underestimating the people who were here before us and our ability to adequately scrutinize their moral fiber. Of course, if by "people", "person" or "anyone", you mean the powerful, wealthy elite of the US, it's another thing entirely.

Its possible that I'm underestimating our ability to fairly judge their moral fiber, but I did not mean to imply that the moral compass of all those who came before is genuinely worse than ours. Quite the opposite, I'm saying many great and noble people who's heart was in the right place are unfairly maligned by future generations for the moral failings of their society as a whole.

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said, when you vaguely point to something in the Zeitgeist I have to guess. I made my assumption clear so don’t try to make this into a gotcha. Specifically extremist, violent, political[1] rhetoric is subsumed by political complaints in general. So if you mean conflate as in draw an equivalence then that is clearly a wrong inference on your part. [1] This adjective wasn’t in your original comment hence my gue…

You don't seem to be following the site rule of "charitable interpretation" here. This reads more like "legalistic nitpicky interpretation" - that is, like bad faith. (Yes, good faith/charitable interpretation can lead to misunderstandings when some things are left unsaid. No, I don't think maximum nitpickiness is the answer to that.)

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#396
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do this with music, and measure how good a song is by what fraction f of the words I would need to change for me to send it n years back in time to be understood by an older audience. I have a small community (n=1 or 4?) where I write this up: https://lemmy.ml/c/howtimeless

Which one would require the most explaining, according to you?

https://lemmy.ml/comment/5509793

Otha Fish by Pharcyde has tons of references ranging from 50s-90s. Scroll down to the main comment to see them explained.

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#397

I am just glad to see I am not the only one making up imaginary scenario where I bring people from the past to have them marvel at our world.

My favorite "one of these" is the idea of taking a Raspberry Pi, or ATtiny, or modern Macbook Pro back to the ENIAC guys. Can you imagine how they'd have reacted to see these tiny little devices which pack orders of magnitude more computational power than their warehouse-sized computer? The mind boggles.

I'm 40 now, but I'm still blown away. It's amazing that we can just keep installing web-servers into random things like wall switches, power outlets and control them wirelessly and just treat is a business as usual.

I just got a WiFi enabled ESP8266 with a thumb sized OLED display for like $10.

I can't really keep track of how many computers are in my home :)

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#398
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are butchers in the supermarkets (at least the one I go to)

Walmart is 25% of grocery sales in the US and they only have pre-packaged meat because 22 years ago, some butchers tried to unionized.

I won't buy meat at Walmart. The couple times I have, it looks great in the package, but when you open it, half the weight is a big fat cap on the bottom. I've seen it happen several times. It's often cuts that should go to a grinder or other use, but not fit for use as a steak.

I avoid fresh produce at Walmart as well, mostly in that the selection usually kind of sucks. There are more and better options around. As to Butchers, there isn't really a dedicated one near me, have to drive halfway across town. But a local grocery chain does have Butchers, but special cuts usually take a few days to get in.

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#399
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe it's because cash is just one asset.. at least if goods exist, you can barter for them, if the cash isn't any good if the necessities just aren't there because, oh I don't know, you took the farms from the farmers because they owned land and owning property was deemed evil, and then the crops failed[1], then they just aren't available and it doesn't matter how much money or gold or any other commodity you might…

it's always odd when people latch onto that as an example, because the west has definitely had politically-induced holodomors caused by over-export of staple crops as well. classically, the irish potato famine comes to mind. you can probably objectively calculate the relative importance of pre-capitalism serfs and post-capitalism serfs by volume of political discourse and online discussion and citations - the peasant…

Regarding the history, here's a good post [1] on getting small farmers to pay rent and/or taxes. This goes back to ancient times and money wasn't required, though it made it more efficient:

> The oldest – and in pre-modern societies, by far the most common – form of rent/tax extraction is extraction in kind, where the farmer pays their rents and taxes with agricultural products directly. Since grain (threshed and winnowed) is a compact, relatively transportable commodity (that is, one sack of grain is as good as the next, in theory), it is ideal for these sorts of transactions, although perusing medieval manorial contacts shows a bewildering array of payments in all sorts of agricultural goods. In some cases, payment in kind might also come in the form of labor, typically called corvée labor, either on public works or even just farming on lands owned by the state.

...

> if you want to collect taxes in money, you need the small farmers to have money. Which means you need markets for them to sell their grain for money and then those merchants need to be able to sell that grain themselves for money, which means you need urban bread-eaters who are buying bread with money, which means those urban workers need to be paid in money. And you can only get any of these people to use money if they can exchange that money for things they want, which creates a nasty first-mover problem.

> We refer to that entire process as monetization – when I talk about economies being ‘monetized’ or ‘incompletely monetized’ that’s what I mean: how completely has the use of money penetrated through this society. It isn’t a one-way street, either. Early and High Imperial Rome seem to have been more completely monetized than the Late Roman Western Empire or the early Middle Ages (though monetization increases rapidly in the later Middle Ages).

...

> The irony of all of this extraction is that while it is often nasty and predatory, it can have some positive long-term effects, because the extra food that the farmers are being effectively forced to produce moves through either state-redistribution or market mechanisms to an increasing population of specialist non-farmers who in turn provide benefits for the broader society, sometimes including the farmers.

> Metal tools, improved plows, large mills and bakeries would all be impossible without specialist smiths, wood-workers, architects, millers and bakers, for instance. And those merchants, moving food around from where it is common to where it is scarce can – if there are enough of them and trade is sufficiently unrestricted by things like wars – serve a valuable stabilizing role on the otherwise wildly destructive volatility of prices for things like food and other essentials. Moreover, specialization and trade encouraged distance travel, which might bring foreign disease, but might also bring new agricultural technologies.

[1] https://acoup.blog/2020/08/21/collections-bread-how-did-they...

Re: It’s an age of marvels

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lol Dallas is the only major city in Texas where "going to the store" doesn't almost always means HEB, too also, complaining that you can't find Thing unless you go to a Mexican meat market is a weird way to boast that your area has specialty grocery stores.

Yes, exactly. Because when I want to talk about food issues, I "boast" by talking about the scarcity of what is perceived to be a lower quality cut of meat near my location, and how I'm driving to find a shop in a poorer neighborhood to meet my food demands. You nailed it, champ.

I didn't take what they were saying as a slight.
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