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What language is the majority of startups using today?

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Re: What language is the majority of startups using today?

#31
post #18
post #15

I used webpy for my last site, but recently changed development to django. Django is really easy to learn, and provides a full stack of components that integrates really well together. I used AJS javascript library, but has changed to JQuery this time. Mostly because of JQuery's numerous plugins.

I'm using webpy for a few sites and it seems great to me. Are there many reasons for the switch? Or did you just want to try something new/better supported? I'm thinking of taking a look at django just because guido tells me to, but I don't see any strong reason to switch.

I've found that I had to gradually replace large parts of web.py as my webapp evolved. For instance:

I had to drop the built-in DB library once I needed to connect to multiple databases. Global DB connections = bad. I suspect that if I'd kept using it, I would've had problems with transactions too.

I had to replace some of the request dispatching when I wanted to add code that triggers on every request (eg. logging, transactions, custom session management, "who's online?", traffic analytics).

I had to drop the Cheetah integration to add internationalization support - Cheetah supports the _ function, but only in precompiled templates.

I had to drop Cheetah entirely as the templates got a little more complicated and I wanted to factor some bits out. Web.py patches the Cheetah #include directive to do what you'd expect: include a file at compile-time (which is the same as runtime under web.py). With precompiled templates, however, it includes it at runtime, which means the included file can't have any #defs. Big pain.

It's not a bad framework to start out with, but you will end up needing to ditch nearly all of it by the time you've handled everything a typical webapp needs. If I were to do it over again, I'd probably start with Pylons. I'd consider Django, but I'm not sure you can swap out Django components the way you can with Pylons.

Re: What language is the majority of startups using today?

#32
Perl with Catalyst, DBIx::Class, and Template Toolkit. All the actual every-day code is really simple because all three are designed for extensibility. I just write little plugins that abstract away the repetitive stuff. I also write lots of long-lived systems daemons. They do all the asynchronous tasks in a super efficient way. Not enough people use this technique in my experience.

Re: What language is the majority of startups using today?

#33
Can someone please tell me why everyone is so anti-php these days. I'm been working on my web project this summer in php, and it seems like every self proclaimed web 2.0 site is choosing either python or ruby.

I feel like I'm on the wrong side of the road, and php is web 1.0. I wonder though, do users care what language the site is made in? And has usuability and quality of a site become determined by programming language?

Re: What language is the majority of startups using today?

#34
post #33

Can someone please tell me why everyone is so anti-php these days. I'm been working on my web project this summer in php, and it seems like every self proclaimed web 2.0 site is choosing either python or ruby. I feel like I'm on the wrong side of the road, and php is web 1.0. I wonder though, do users care what language the site is made in? And has usuability and quality of a site become determined by programming lan…

To answer your question, the only thing users care about is what your site does and if it does it well. The only people who care are the other people who are developing websites as well.

Basically I see the PHP backlash coming out of many painful personal experiences that hit the limitations/drawbacks of PHP. I've maintained a large social networking site written by someone else and I can tell you it was a stinking pile of spaghetti.

I think the power comes from using a framework like RoR of Django that abstracts aways common parts of web development. Plus I see it as a way to keep from reinventing the wheel which leads to simpler code. And we all love simple code.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.

Re: What language is the majority of startups using today?

#39

No question. PHP. However, this doesn't mean you should follow suit. In particular, PHP works best as a vanilla choice, something to get set up with quickly. The moment you start using e.g. Cake, the point of PHP is no longer and you should look elsewhere. There's no useful answer in any case, just hints and use cases. It depends entirely on what you're building. Heavy single-purpose web app like gmail? No question -…

I disagree. I believe the opposite: GWT is a bad choice, mainly because GWT has to be compiled every time. It's much better to use a framework, including ones for PHP, since PHP is faster than Ruby and most popular frameworks have memcached support, and a great community.

Also, most frameworks are evolving FAR quicker than GWT is.

Thirdly, GWT will still require server-side coding. You might as well use a framework with an Ajax library or just plain html output, and then add-in GWT or Adobe Flex later, if at all.

Fourth, GWT does not have anywhere near the community or IRC users that most frameworks do.

But, mainly, GWT is a bad idea because it loses the advantage that web frameworks give to web startups over desktop development. That's because using GWT can be even slower than using traditional desktop development tools like Visual Studio because you not only have to compile, but also upload the files to get a real idea of what you're doing.

Why not just use a console with a web framework, or something with both in one like Seaside? As soon as you save the file, the change exists.

Re: What language is the majority of startups using today?

#40
post #39

No question. PHP. However, this doesn't mean you should follow suit. In particular, PHP works best as a vanilla choice, something to get set up with quickly. The moment you start using e.g. Cake, the point of PHP is no longer and you should look elsewhere. There's no useful answer in any case, just hints and use cases. It depends entirely on what you're building. Heavy single-purpose web app like gmail? No question -…

I disagree. I believe the opposite: GWT is a bad choice, mainly because GWT has to be compiled every time. It's much better to use a framework, including ones for PHP, since PHP is faster than Ruby and most popular frameworks have memcached support, and a great community. Also, most frameworks are evolving FAR quicker than GWT is. Thirdly, GWT will still require server-side coding. You might as well use a framework w…

There are a few misconceptions about GWT in the above comment:

"most frameworks are evolving FAR quicker than GWT is."

GWT is only a year old and has had 4 major releases. It just went open-source recently, so it's too early to tell how fast it will evolve.

"GWT does not have anywhere near the community or IRC users that most frameworks do."

GWT community is huge - there are over 600 posts a week on its Google Group. I'm not aware of an IRC channel for it though.

"using GWT can be even slower than using traditional desktop development tools like Visual Studio because you not only have to compile, but also upload the files to get a real idea of what you're doing."

No, you only need to upload files when you're actually doing a release.

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