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Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

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Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US citizens owe the US government taxes on their income regardless where it was earned, barring some specific exclusions. At any rate, where a company is registered or where an asset is held doesn't necessarily have much bearing on where work is done or what infrastructure is used and to what extent.

> US citizens owe the US government taxes on their income regardless where it was earned, barring some specific exclusions. That seems like the flaw here, not the other thing. Why should the US government have any entitlement to tax activity that occurs entirely outside their jurisdiction? > At any rate, where a company is registered or where an asset is held doesn't necessarily have much bearing on where work is don…

>That seems like the flaw here, not the other thing. Why should the US government have any entitlement to tax activity that occurs entirely outside their jurisdiction?

Tax evasion doesn't cease to be tax evasion because you don't feel like you owe the government taxes.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#172

I follow the contemporary art world pretty closely, and a feeling I often get is that it's merely a giant collection of individuals expressing themselves in a way that fits into the market system of galleries, museums, auctions, etc. There are of course artists focused on political causes, but for the most part it is entirely devoid of any centralized ethos or ideal. While this situation is freeing for the individual…

> because their value is determined by their individuality and self-expression Rather by their conformity and tame-expression

Can you name me five well-known contemporary artists that you would consider conformists?

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#173
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No I'm sure you can find clear examples of painting purely for self-expression much earlier than Goya Name one. Perhaps one can mention artists like Caravagio and El Greco. But all such artists addressed themes that were common: the bible and the clasiics. The unique thing about the romantic movement was that they placed immediate human experience above god and godliness. Honestly, check out Goya's black paintings…

I feel like the obvious answer here is cave paintings.

Maybe. But I feel that the stuff our ancient ancestors did on walls is a different class of activity to that which we now call art. I suspect that their paintings were done as a votive: maybe as part of a prayer or a ceremony.

There are too many things that are grouped under the same word: 'art'. Objects which serve different functions should not share the same name.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US citizens owe the US government taxes on their income regardless where it was earned, barring some specific exclusions. That seems like the flaw here, not the other thing. Why should the US government have any entitlement to tax activity that occurs entirely outside their jurisdiction? > At any rate, where a company is registered or where an asset is held doesn't necessarily have much bearing on where work is don…

>That seems like the flaw here, not the other thing. Why should the US government have any entitlement to tax activity that occurs entirely outside their jurisdiction? Tax evasion doesn't cease to be tax evasion because you don't feel like you owe the government taxes.

Whereas it does cease to be tax evasion when it literally isn't tax evasion, it's tax avoidance. And then people are complaining about this as if it shouldn't be possible, when it should be the default. To owe a jurisdiction taxes you should have to be doing something in it.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not clear how this is even supposed to be tax evasion. If you're not operating in a jurisdiction then you shouldn't owe them any taxes. Which jurisdiction is even alleged to be owed the money, and on what basis?

Well, presumably the whole concept of a Freeport is kind of a “hack” against the tax system. These items are treated as if they’re in transit, but they are stored indefinitely.

They're treated as if they're outside of the jurisdiction, because they are. It's not a hack, it's just a fact. It's not even weird. The weird expectation is that areas outside of a given country's jurisdiction wouldn't exist.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is almost certainly never going to actually exist, so this is all idle speculation, but if it was real I don't think it would necessarily play out as you describe. The wealthy would be paying way more in tax than they are now (they have to, or their own assets would be sold as well), which would result in a much more generous system of income redistribution. They'd also need to generate constant cash flow to pre…

> The wealthy would be paying way more in tax than they are now (they have to, or their own assets would be sold as well) That has nothing to do with the concept. The rate of the tax is separate from how it operates. > I suspect the stable equilibrium would be a lot more renting rather than property ownership Then the person doing the renting out would be paying the tax (and incurring the associated risks) and passin…

>The problem here is assets that are hard to value. Not just in a subjective sense (what is a piece of art really worth?), but in a very practical sense. Take the things we have very good pricing information on -- stocks. If a share of Google is worth $100 and then six months later it's worth $110, but you put down $100 on the form -- objectively its market price at the time --

This isn't a problem at all. You can let the brokerage report the value on your behalf. It's weird that you picked stocks specifically, because those are actually very easy to value. That's why your brokerage can provide you with a very precise number that fluctuates every time you log in.

>now someone can lift your shares off of you for a discount because the value changed and they raced to the filing office before you did.

That someone would be the government, and the government would presumably put a bid in anticipation of your filing. When you file your taxes in April 2025 and you say your grand masterpiece is worth $1.2 million, the tax office can be prepared to say "yup, that sounds like a good price to us. Now sell it to us for that price" at the point when you file your taxes.

>Then it gets worse. Many types of property have a value to the owner which is different than their market value.

How on earth is that worse? If you put the property in at market value then the government will not try to buy it from you. They'll be going after the low hanging fruit - the guy who valued a picasso at $1 million, not the guy whose grandmother passed down a family heirloom nobody else gives a shit about.

>Suppose you operate a self-storage company. You have a piece of property which is objectively worth $500,000 where you operate your business. You declare that it's worth $500,000, because it is. Now a competitor can buy it off you for that amount just to grief you

Government, not competitor. If the government employee responsible for finding underpriced assets and bidding on them put a $500k bid on $500k property then their bonus is not likely to amount to much. They'll be aiming for $1 million bids on $10 million property.

Yes, if you let anybody bid on things it could cause more issues which require mitigation. Even then, if you put in a threshold that they have to bid 10-15% over then this would stem abuse. Imagine a competitor trying to "grief" you by overpaying $50-75k for your assets.

Something tells me that you will still object.

>It's the kind of thing academics come up with

Sometimes people who object to the practicalities of a tax are actually objecting to it on principle.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#177
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Specifically the gaps in meta-narratives and institutions in terms of what and who they don't apply to are self-evident and their mere existence is a powerful critique of [post]modernism. Postmodernism is precisely as guilty of this — so framing it as a rejection of that concept from modernism seems wrong. Rather, they just shallowly applied the same failings to different groups and patted themselves on the back fo…

I have trouble not being harsh here. I will state that your understanding seems common in the Anglo world, for whatever reasons. Even Britannica's dictionary editor don't seem to have read either Lyotard or Deleuze, and base its definition of a misreading (or mistranslation most likely, but I don't have proofs) of Derrida. Derrida later denied this reading, quite directly in "Twentieth-Century Literary Theory: An Int…

> Anyway, this 'Rather, they just shallowly applied the same failings to different groups' is nonsensical when talking about postmodernism.

In practice, postmodernists failed in precisely the way that I quoted in my post.

You say you’re “having trouble not being harsh”, but your criticism would be more sound if you didn’t seem to have trouble reading — to the point you didn’t read my comment.

> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'failings',

Eg, here you seem not to comprehend that my comment is replying to the quoted text, and hence means the failings of modernism that were highlighted by the post I replied to (and quoted).

My usage of the word “failings” is to mirror the usage in that post — and you’re ignoring what’s happening in the discussion to feign ignorance for a cheap rhetorical flourish.

> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'failings', but the idea of using 'groups' to describe anything is quite ant-postmodernist.

My exact point was that postmodernists claim this — and yet, fall into precisely the same group-based policy that the post I replied to said they were opposing.

Ie, that they’re hypocrites.

> I would like that people giving their opinion about postmodernism read a bit before

You’re living down to my criticism: you’re proclaiming some virtue you clearly don’t practice yourself — since you didn’t even read my comment, as evidenced by your failure to reply on the substance.

So your comment has only reinforced my conclusion:

> Postmodernism was nothing but phonies.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#178

I follow the contemporary art world pretty closely, and a feeling I often get is that it's merely a giant collection of individuals expressing themselves in a way that fits into the market system of galleries, museums, auctions, etc. There are of course artists focused on political causes, but for the most part it is entirely devoid of any centralized ethos or ideal. While this situation is freeing for the individual…

Art is creativity expressed under a constraint. That constraint can be the medium, the style, or even something as arbitrary as writing a novel without using the letter 'e'.

I've noticed that most of the truly great works of art (in my opinion) have been works produced under unusually restrictive constraints.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#179
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The wealthy would be paying way more in tax than they are now (they have to, or their own assets would be sold as well) That has nothing to do with the concept. The rate of the tax is separate from how it operates. > I suspect the stable equilibrium would be a lot more renting rather than property ownership Then the person doing the renting out would be paying the tax (and incurring the associated risks) and passin…

>The problem here is assets that are hard to value. Not just in a subjective sense (what is a piece of art really worth?), but in a very practical sense. Take the things we have very good pricing information on -- stocks. If a share of Google is worth $100 and then six months later it's worth $110, but you put down $100 on the form -- objectively its market price at the time -- This isn't a problem at all. You can le…

> This isn't a problem at all. You can let the brokerage report the value on your behalf.

How does that help? The value is constantly in flux. They would still have to be faster than the other party (presumably well-heeled large investment banks with fast computers) trying to pick up stocks at a discount to their current value.

Conversely, trying to asses the value non-continuously leads to all kinds of weirdness where people temporarily shift their holdings to more advantageous asset classes on the day the form has to be filed. Or it just provides a method for defeating the tax entirely: On the day before your filing day you sell all your stocks and use the money to buy an assortment of esoterica from your buddy, declare it to have minimal value (because no one else could easily use or sell it), then the next day you sell some other difficult-to-value stuff back to them for the original amount of money and put the money back into stocks. In general people could arrange for the asset someone could deprive them of to be something nobody else would want.

> It's weird that you picked stocks specifically, because those are actually very easy to value.

You might think so, but then there's this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_premium

If someone wants to own 51% of a company, they typically have to pay you a price for your shares above where they're currently trading. But it's really only those last few shares that yield majority voting rights which have that higher value, not all of them. Not even the 49% they don't buy. And yet every individual share is perfectly fungible, so how are you supposed to value them to reflect the amount you could normally get, without giving up the control premium you would be entitled to if a buyer comes who wants a controlling interest?

> That someone would be the government, and the government would presumably put a bid in anticipation of your filing.

This completely defeats the premise of the tax on both ends. You now have the government rather than potential buyers assessing the value of the property, they still have to estimate the value of hard-to-value assets and the whole thing just becomes a game of trying to guess the government assessor's secret estimate of your property value. Not to mention the fun new game where you acquire or create hard-to-value assets that you personally know are not worth very much or will otherwise be overestimated by the government assessor, and then try to come in just under their assessment value so they overpay you for them.

And how is the government supposed to anticipate your filing if neither of you know it's about to happen? If you're in the business of trade you could have bought and sold something in the time it takes them to estimate its value. What happens for a company with diverse inventory and a high turnover rate?

> If you put the property in at market value then the government will not try to buy it from you. They'll be going after the low hanging fruit - the guy who valued a picasso at $1 million, not the guy whose grandmother passed down a family heirloom nobody else gives a shit about.

This is an adversarial process. If you can value a $100M asset at $2M and not lose it unless you go below $1M then that's what everybody is going to do. It would be an entire industry dedicated to valuing property just above the threshold where the government would actually take it, with everyone striving to operate just at the threshold, wherever that is. You can't put a safety margin in because the market will just remove it.

It's like the speed limit. It doesn't matter if the sign says 55, if you only get a ticket at 70 then traffic moves at 69 and anybody who gets ticketed for going 58 is going to be surprised and resentful.

> Government, not competitor.

Then how is this solving the government's problem in valuing things? The whole point is to let anybody do it so the market can decide if someone is undervaluing their property.

> Even then, if you put in a threshold that they have to bid 10-15% over then this would stem abuse. Imagine a competitor trying to "grief" you by overpaying $50-75k for your assets.

They've interrupted your business, stolen half your customers and possibly caused you to exit the market. That could easily be worth $50-75k.

Also notice this is identical to just telling people to overpay their taxes by 10-15% by overvaluing their assets, because anyone whose assets are fungible would just undervalue them by the allotted threshold, and for others 10-15% is nowhere near enough. There isn't any specific fixed margin because the cost of being forced to sell an asset can be arbitrarily large. Suppose you buy a piece of property that you're now using as the terminus for a $100M undersea cable. The property is just an arbitrary acre of land but the $100M cable is now fixed in place.

Or take software for example. The Linux kernel is "free" but how much grief would it cause if people suddenly couldn't use it anymore? Does Linus Torvalds have enough money to pay the taxes every year on the one-time amount old Microsoft would pay to make that happen?

> Sometimes people who object to the practicalities of a tax are actually objecting to it on principle.

Sometimes people who like the principle of a tax dismiss the practicalities.

Re: Adam Curtis on the dangers of self-expression (2017)

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because their value is determined by their individuality and self-expression Rather by their conformity and tame-expression

Can you name me five well-known contemporary artists that you would consider conformists?

Jeff Koons, Damien Hirst, Takashi Murakami, the list is endless.

And those are the big names - the conformity of the middle-tier fine arts scene is mind numbing...

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