Live data from Hacker News

Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

medicalxpress.com

341–350 of 358 posts

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like asking where to draw the line when somebody is bald. Are you bald if you have 1 hair? Yes. 2? 3? 137? There's of course reasonable room for discretion in saying what is or isn't bald. But it isn't reasonable to say somebody with a full-on afro is on the spectrum of being bald. Literally some of the most high functioning and successful individuals are being diagnosed as "on the spectrum" of what is, in it…

Autism is defined by social communication and restrictive behavior - not functioning, why are you so caught up on the functioning side of it?

Because pathologizing and aiming to "treat" behavioral characteristics that are not only not harmful, but actively beneficial in many cases, is completely and utterly absurd. It'd be akin to something like, 'Oh you seem to be oddly content with your life. Have you gotten yourself screened for stoicitis? I hear there's some treatments available.' It's just nonsensical.

The reason behavioral characteristics are pathologized is because they near invariably result in "meaningful" harm to an individual or to others. And "meaningful" isn't a guy saying mean things because he doesn't care about your emotions, but rather a schizophrenic deciding to go start killing people because the voices in his head told him to.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can. When I look at extremely functional autistics like Elon Musk, the idea he has a condition which makes him diseased and disordered is absurd. I think the natural reaction to that is that either diagnostic criteria should be narrowed and/or it should be possible for people to lose their diagnosis if they achieve Elon Musk levels of functioning. -OR- Autism should be viewed more neutrally, as people of a certain…

Elon Musk is highly functional but he also has a wide and deep support network unlike most other autistic people. He self immolates all the time and he's propped up by his great wealth. He self medicates with drugs. He has a team of people who handle his every need. When normal autistic people self immolate as such, they are cast from society forever - fired, locked up, abandoned, or even killed. And just because som…

Yet he functions well in niche circumstances, and he's currently in said circumstances and functioning. Not only that, most people would not be able to function as well as Musk in Musk's shoes.

Also, the absurdity isn't really Musk in a vacuum, it's him being in the same basket as people who can't complete any activities of daily living. He might actually be more similar to quite a few people with ADHD than quite a few people with level 3 autism. It's very strange and incoherent even.

This is, by the way, all a result of what a mess of a taxonomy the DSM and ICD are.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't actually tell you anything. Someone who drives 100,000 miles/year at the same level of safety would have 20 times more accidents in the same period of time than someone who drives 5000 miles/year. Certain areas have more traffic or are otherwise more prone to accidents. 5 is not a large enough statistical sample to know if someone is the cause or just unlucky.

Yeah yeah, you have to report mileage for insurance and registration so of course that will be taken into account. Even if you drive 100k miles in 5 years, you should not have 5 accidents that were your fault. That's just insanely unsafe. The cause isn't determined by luck or number - it's determined by the facts that show you or the other person was at fault (or that nobody was at fault).

> you have to report mileage for insurance and registration

You don't necessarily have to report mileage for insurance, it only happens for registration when the vehicle changes ownership, and in either case that is the mileage on the vehicle rather than the driver. Someone who drives 100,000 miles a year might very well be doing it in multiple different vehicles.

> Even if you drive 100k miles in 5 years, you should not have 5 accidents that were your fault. That's just insanely unsafe.

It's not a large statistical sample. A large proportion of the people it happens to will be drivers of average skill operating under conditions with above-average risk. Being an unsafe driver isn't the same thing as driving in an area with unsafe intersections.

> The cause isn't determined by luck or number - it's determined by the facts that show you or the other person was at fault (or that nobody was at fault).

Most of these investigations are cursory unless someone dies, and under those conditions they're basically impossible to get right except by chance. One car rear-ended the other, the driver in front says the other one was following too closely, the one in back says the other cut them off and then slammed on the brakes, there were no unbiased witnesses. Whatever goes into that report is going to have the accuracy of a coin flip if the accident isn't one that warrants a thorough investigation -- and even then there may be no way to ever know what really happened.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah yeah, you have to report mileage for insurance and registration so of course that will be taken into account. Even if you drive 100k miles in 5 years, you should not have 5 accidents that were your fault. That's just insanely unsafe. The cause isn't determined by luck or number - it's determined by the facts that show you or the other person was at fault (or that nobody was at fault).

> you have to report mileage for insurance and registration You don't necessarily have to report mileage for insurance, it only happens for registration when the vehicle changes ownership, and in either case that is the mileage on the vehicle rather than the driver. Someone who drives 100,000 miles a year might very well be doing it in multiple different vehicles. > Even if you drive 100k miles in 5 years, you should…

My state requires mileage every year. Even if it's not accurate for everyone, it's accurate enough for vast majority of people.

Even if you talk about someone cutting you off, that doesn't happen often. You aren't going to get 5 "coin flip" accidents in 5 years. There are dash cams if you're really that concerned. Which brings up another good point. If you really think that fault will be attributed to you incorrectly that often, then your insurance will surely go up, so you already have a dash cam to protect yourself from this existing reality you are peddling?

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s even worse, of course you are allowed your own feelings. What gives me the creeps is when people start talking about prevention it easily slides into eugenics or other things that deny poeople agency or even their humanity. There is a similar thing for deaf people. Or how screening for Down’s has changed the reality of raising a child with it.

If there is a way to prevent your child a life of hardship resulting from being deaf or born with down's syndrome, are you genuinely saying you wouldn't do it? It's one thing to be content with who you are, it's another to deliberately impose hardship on someone when it could be avoided.

It’s one thing to prevent being born with hardship and preventing being born at all. Which is the case with Down’s screening.

But it’s not that I’m against it or wanting to forbid it. It’s that these are very tricky subjects with a lot of very hard moral issues that need careful consideration. In the end I believe it should be about letting people have a choice and to remember that people are human even if they are different. To not take away someone’s agency.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are severely disabled by autism. Are you suggesting that we should just let them suffer?

It's not the autism that does any sort of disabling. If there are some sort of issues that are disabling someone's way to live normally, deal with them, but don't use autism as a label or call it a disease. There's no "autism" as a "disease" that causes those symptoms.

Autism is a condition which cause is not exactly clear, but there are clearly identified symptoms "attached" to the "word/label" "autism". Which is how you define/classify/identify a word, and in this case a disease or a disability if you prefer.

May no parents with autistic children ever read your comment.

I suggest you take a closer to the definition : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_spectrum

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#347
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… Yeah, I see how you could take that away from it. Thanks for explaining. There are treatments for specific issues associated with autism (e.g. ADHD medication, noise-filtering headphones, AAC tools), but autism is a form of human polymorphism. Like allism and situs inversus, it's a developmental condition, so any research programmes with the capacity to "cure" autism are eugenics research programmes. That's a liter…

I'm also extremely visually impaired, so I'm curious: does advocating for "curing" blindness also mean advocating for eugenics?

Depends. Cool cyborg eyes, better glasses, cataract surgery, retinal detachment surgery, etc. are not eugenics, so they're fine to advocate for. Heritable genetic modification, embryo selection, sterilisation campaigns etc. are eugenics, and advocating for them will do more harm than good.

Visual impairment isn't, afaik, something the eugenics bad guys are focusing on at the moment – though it was in the past – so they're not likely to twist research into the sorts of things that get bowdlerised out of history textbooks. (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5225285/ exists, but there's no organisation seeking legal permission to electrocute non-compliant blind children.*) So even if you keep it vague, advocating for "curing" blindness is unlikely to be seen as, or act as, advocating for eugenics; likewise, research into the developmental origins of (say) congenital cataracts is mostly safe.

Eugenics is when you take measures that improve the overall fitness of the human population. In other words, eugenics is when you decide which kinds of people should and shouldn't exist.

There are people with skin so fair that it burns in even moderate sunlight – even through clothing –, leading to an increased incidence of melanoma. This is associated with the Asp294His polymorphism in the MC1R gene. This would be very easy to "cure"… and I really wish, as a species, we had the capacity to say "hey, option's available to anyone who wants it, but we won't force it on anyone". But if we had that technology today, you know it would be used in some tired plan for ethnic cleansing, where the cruelty is the point and the costs don't matter. Every time we have some scientific (or cultural) advance that can be construed as legitimising such actions, people attempt it.

And maybe we'll grow past that.

---

*: since they've come up in the thread before, I feel obliged to note: Autism Speaks' PR machine is, surprisingly enough, on the right side of this particular child torture issue.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#348
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what the article suggests at all. It's during the developmental stage, which is by nature temporary.

Yes it is. It's exactly what the article suggests: --- ... Naviaux and his team completed early clinical testing for suramin. ... Now, the researchers hope that by revealing the specific ATP-related pathways that are altered in autism, their work will help scientists develop more drugs that target these pathways to manage the symptoms of ASD. "Suramin is just one drug that targets the cell danger response," he said.…

That doesn't mean it's permanent?

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you have to report mileage for insurance and registration You don't necessarily have to report mileage for insurance, it only happens for registration when the vehicle changes ownership, and in either case that is the mileage on the vehicle rather than the driver. Someone who drives 100,000 miles a year might very well be doing it in multiple different vehicles. > Even if you drive 100k miles in 5 years, you should…

My state requires mileage every year. Even if it's not accurate for everyone, it's accurate enough for vast majority of people. Even if you talk about someone cutting you off, that doesn't happen often. You aren't going to get 5 "coin flip" accidents in 5 years. There are dash cams if you're really that concerned. Which brings up another good point. If you really think that fault will be attributed to you incorrectly…

> Even if it's not accurate for everyone, it's accurate enough for vast majority of people.

It has to be accurate for everyone. You're talking about imposing a restriction that amounts to house arrest for anyone who can't afford a city apartment or a chauffeur.

> Even if you talk about someone cutting you off, that doesn't happen often.

I see that you have not experienced the wonders of New York traffic.

> You aren't going to get 5 "coin flip" accidents in 5 years.

If you flip a coin 5 times in a row, the chances of it coming up tails every time is 1 in 32. Against a hundred million drivers that's a lot of people.

And that's assuming it's fully random and not e.g. you have the first two falsely attributed to you at random, at which point investigating officers see your record and become biased to finding you at fault in any case going forward.

> If you really think that fault will be attributed to you incorrectly that often, then your insurance will surely go up, so you already have a dash cam to protect yourself from this existing reality you are peddling?

People don't think it will happen ahead of time, they realize it can happen after it already has.

US motor vehicle laws are also (presumably intentionally) designed to let the police come to any conclusion they want as a pretext for searches or revenue-generating citations. For example, hardly anybody follows the speed limit, so if you drive below the speed limit then you're impeding the normal flow of traffic (nominally a violation), and causing a (real) hazard because other cars will bunch up and perform lane change maneuvers to go around you. It's also "suspicious"; the people who do it are disproportionately drunk or in possession of contraband. But if you drive with the flow of traffic then you're speeding which is also a violation.

A dash cam might then help you if an accident is caused by the other driver doing something egregious, but if it's caused by e.g. bad road design and the officer is nonetheless expected to assign fault to somebody, now you're handing them a pile of evidence from which to identify common violations. It's not obvious that it helps you.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autism is a spectrum disorder, but while you may be picturing it as a continuum from less autistic to severely autistic, with nonverbal autistic people at one end and high functioning autistic people on the other, that is not the reality of autism. Here is a good blog post written by someone, with a graphic that shows the difference between how people think of autism versus how others experience it. https://themighty…

Thank you for your candid comment. It is frustrating to engage via comments and I have learned something from your comments. All labels including "autistic" are usually very misunderstood - often even amongst people with the same label. Hopefully commenters here are more understanding - given that if you work in the software field you very often deal with people with mild traits of autism. All the best.

Yeah I think people who are autistic gravitate toward it. It's a very happy coincidence that so many things about computers attract autistic minds. It's a skill that's valuable enough and specialized enough that autistic idiosyncrasies are tolerated to a greater degree than in other fields.

I know deep in my heart if my special interest were birdhouses or windchimes, I would not be in the privileged position I am today. I also know that if my skin were not white, my gender were not male, and my orientation not straight / cis I would not have the same life experience as I did, which all things considered has turned out okay (others called my inability to live a typical life an objectively negative outcome, but I disagree!).

Many of my friends are POC or trans or gay and they face challenges I do not on top of their autism. I don't think I would be nearly as "high functioning" as I am if I weren't conventionally attractive and part of a majority race/ethnic group in my country.

Thanks for listening and learning something; I'm glad my attempt at spreading awareness has worked on at least one person!

Post reply on HN