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Let’s Be Less Productive

nytimes.com

41–50 of 84 posts

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the whole 21 hour work week thing, I think one way to deal with the compensation issue would be to enforce maximum gaps. By which I mean, write a law that says the top compensated individual in any company can only be compensated so many times the bottom. So if an executive wants to be paid more, after a certain point he has to raise everyone else's salary too. This would also help deal with the issue of executive…

That sounds like a fine idea, but realize that just before the law comes into force affected companies will move their operations overseas [1]. Do you support punitive tariffs on foreign imports? [1] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2040142,00....

Charging a fine? No. Disallowing the entry of their goods into the US market entirely unless they obey US labor laws? Yes.

It'd cause all manner of hell on implementation, because it would completely turn the world economy on its head. Right now we're really dependent on abusing the hell out of cheap labor and countries that don't have a solid regulatory structure. So while we sit here and claim to decent labor and environmental standards we're consuming a ton of goods produced with out them at a cheap cost. But the world is a single, closed system. At some point, this is going to catch up to us.

We could use our consumer power to force an equalization in the global labor market by making a simple declaration: obey our labor and environmental standards -- and let us confirm that you do -- or you don't get to sell your goods to our market. Period. Suddenly, outsourced labor looks a lot less attractive. If you can't abuse the cheap labor and lax environmental laws in other countries, then there's no reason not to put your production in the US.

Of course, this all depends on the fact that the US is one of the top consumer markets in the world, and that companies will do anything to avoid being cut out of it. The window of opportunity in which that's true is closing fast with the rise of China. And may, actually, already be closed. Of course, if you could get multiple high consumption countries together and agree on mutual labor standards to enforce and that any company not fulfilling them would be kept out of any of those countries then it'd have a lot more power.

And of course, there's always the fact that any companies that refused could always be replaced by start-ups.

The change over would be a little rough and chaotic, and it's hard (impossible?) to predict what would actually happen during it. But if we manage to make it through it, the resulting world would have a level playing field for labor and environmental practices. It's difficult to predict the effect it would have on living standards for those of us currently abusing everyone else. Our living standard might drop a bit as the price of goods goes up. But then, if this were linked with the previously mentioned law, a lot of the wealth that's caught up in the top of the economy right now would be forced down. That wealth would create a lot more consumers with money to spend, which means more demand, which means more jobs for everyone. So it could mean everyone's living standards go up -- despite a rise in the cost of labor and therefor goods.

I'd be really interested to see someone model it.

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#42
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the whole 21 hour work week thing, I think one way to deal with the compensation issue would be to enforce maximum gaps. By which I mean, write a law that says the top compensated individual in any company can only be compensated so many times the bottom. So if an executive wants to be paid more, after a certain point he has to raise everyone else's salary too. This would also help deal with the issue of executive…

> By which I mean, write a law that says the top compensated individual in any company can only be compensated so many times the bottom. That wouldn't work that well. Companies would just split along payment levels, then. I.e. either outsource the peons, or take the CEO on loan from McKinsey.

Good point, you'd have to link it with some sort of law with respect to ownership stakes and control.

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a fine idea, but realize that just before the law comes into force affected companies will move their operations overseas [1]. Do you support punitive tariffs on foreign imports? [1] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2040142,00....

Charging a fine? No. Disallowing the entry of their goods into the US market entirely unless they obey US labor laws? Yes. It'd cause all manner of hell on implementation, because it would completely turn the world economy on its head. Right now we're really dependent on abusing the hell out of cheap labor and countries that don't have a solid regulatory structure. So while we sit here and claim to decent labor and e…

> Disallowing the entry of their goods into the US market entirely unless they obey US labor laws? Yes.

I'd be interested to see how Americans react when their products are disallowed into Europe for failing to meet EU labour and environmental regulations.

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#44
First thing I thought of when I read about a reduced workweek - especially 21 hours - damn, that would give me time to finish those side projects I've been working on! I doubt most people have the same approach that I do, but you can imagine the entreprenurial boost this might have on our society where many of us are over educated for the type of work we end up doing.

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a fine idea, but realize that just before the law comes into force affected companies will move their operations overseas [1]. Do you support punitive tariffs on foreign imports? [1] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2040142,00....

Charging a fine? No. Disallowing the entry of their goods into the US market entirely unless they obey US labor laws? Yes. It'd cause all manner of hell on implementation, because it would completely turn the world economy on its head. Right now we're really dependent on abusing the hell out of cheap labor and countries that don't have a solid regulatory structure. So while we sit here and claim to decent labor and e…

Consider that an obvious response by the targeted country to tariffs on their exports is to erect restrictions on imports from the initiating country - a situation which can easily result in mutual escalation of trade barriers and one which the WTO was formed to prevent.

Rather than unilaterally barring goods from entering the US which do not comply with our labor and environmental laws, a better approach could be to work within the WTO framework to establish common labor and environmental standards.

Of course, this is strongly resisted by developing nations who justifiably see the strict pollution controls as a way to prevent their transition from vassal states to competitive members of the global economy (see: Carbon Taxes).

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a fine idea, but realize that just before the law comes into force affected companies will move their operations overseas [1]. Do you support punitive tariffs on foreign imports? [1] http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2040142,00....

Charging a fine? No. Disallowing the entry of their goods into the US market entirely unless they obey US labor laws? Yes. It'd cause all manner of hell on implementation, because it would completely turn the world economy on its head. Right now we're really dependent on abusing the hell out of cheap labor and countries that don't have a solid regulatory structure. So while we sit here and claim to decent labor and e…

...a lot of the wealth that's caught up in the top of the economy right now would be forced down. That wealth would create a lot more consumers with money to spend,...

This doesn't follow. Most of the wealth that's "caught up in the top of the economy" is simply the means of production. I.e., Zuckerberg's wealth is mainly 30% of Facebook.

Suppose we redistributed 30% of FB to the lower classes. How will this raise living standards?

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#47
post #13

This kind of alarmism is both very old and economically ignorant. We have already experienced this scenario multiple times, and it always leaves us better off. Consider that 200 years ago almost everyone was in farming, and now it employs less than 2%, thanks to drastically higher productivity. We didn't all end up unemployed. We invented whole new things to work on. Most of us are doing things our ancestors would ha…

Yes, frivolous and bizzarre work... or surrogate activities as the Unabomber would put it.

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#48
I dunno.. I see a lot of depressed faces in NY subways - the pinnacle of economic growth.

While those Himalayan villagers and monks don't seem to worry about economic growth and efficiency.. and they're always smiling.

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#49
post #2

The thought of eschewing productivity makes me cringe instantly. But that said, I worry he's not wrong about some things. Our economies don't seem to be growing fast enough to negate the downsides of things like automation. Rather than slow down productivity, which surely few other nations would do, wouldn't it serve us better in the long run to do a better job of splitting up the work between capable hands? In that…

The ideals of a crazy person like me would be "hike up the minimum wage insanely high, pry money from the pockets of the wealthy"... Ignoring the normative reasons why one might oppose this, how would it even work practically? At the level of most of us, wealth is a claim on consumption. So redistribution of wealth among the middle class does enable redistribution of consumption At the level of rich people, it isn't…

I hope more people realize this. What the rich have more of beyond a threshold is power not objects. If you take the "stuff they own" and give it to the poor, each person on this planet will get very little. They will become a little more freer from the tyranny of the rich and their whims and fancies... but it is unlikely that their standard of living will improve at all. We need to have more energy and resources to actually improve the conditions of the masses. Just moving the money around will not get us there. Things like dematerialization: "Turning Gramaphones into iPods into a feature on a tablet" is an example. Elimination of books and paper is another. Education is slowly moving in that direction. To learn something, the student needs to spend time and effort.... not gobs of money to buy a piece of paper. Medicines cost pennies to produce. We spend an inordiante amount of human effort to discover them. If we get better at this, we can spend a lot lesser on health-care. Such changes bring huge improvements. If you need to work only 3 days a week. You save 40% on travel. Earn less and spend less. You will have lesser traffic woes too. Parents could participate more in the education of their kids and take better care of the elderly. Asking people to mine with spoons instead of shovels so that they can all be busy is silly. Jobs are a milder version of slavery for most people. Let us liberate the planet from this as much as possible. But if people had to switch to a 3 day work week, we need to ensure that the quality of life should not drop but improve by doing so.

Re: Let’s Be Less Productive

#50
post #13

This kind of alarmism is both very old and economically ignorant. We have already experienced this scenario multiple times, and it always leaves us better off. Consider that 200 years ago almost everyone was in farming, and now it employs less than 2%, thanks to drastically higher productivity. We didn't all end up unemployed. We invented whole new things to work on. Most of us are doing things our ancestors would ha…

This line of reasoning is fallacious. See the following graph: http://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2012/human_vs_machine_prog... So far, we've invented whole new things to work on. There is no compelling reason to believe that will continue to happen. Incidentally, that scenario hasn't always left biological entities better off. When technology reduced the wages for travel below the level of horse subsistence, the resu…

The fallacy here is that machines “replace” humans. They don’t. They can displace humans from jobs, but the humans don’t disappear. The humans still exist and can still do all the things humans can do, including find ways to create value that other humans are willing to pay for.

Horses, however, cannot. When horses are displaced from their “jobs,” they don’t have the option of finding other ways to create value for humans.

Any causal model that ignores this distinction between humans and other ‘biological entities,’ entities which just happen to play a supporting role in human society, is a model we can expect to make poor predictions about the future of humanity.

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