Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins • Hacker News Board

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#81

Post by r3trohack3r » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

Der_Einzige wrote: post #11

I know of at least one book written by and for autistic people who advocates for a gluten free diet. They claim in the book that this significantly reduces their symptoms. I don’t know if I believe it or not, but the notion of gut-brain axis seems to imply that a good diet should help a bit, right?

Anecdotal, but we grow a heritage strain of wheat here in PHX (Sonoran White).

Its appearance gives me pause. Common commercial wheat is very short in comparison.

I have a friend who can’t eat “common” wheat products from the grocery store, having been diagnosed with severe gluten intolerance, but can eat Sonoran White without symptoms.

You can follow the same exact recipe but substitute Sonoran White flour for standard flower, and they can eat the final product.

I have absolutely no research to support my stance here. But given gluten intolerance is, from my understanding, a microbiome disorder. And Sonoran White grows tall and requires less pesticide/herbicide/fungicide, while common commercial wheat grows low to the ground and the head of wheat sits stewing in a bath of herbicide/pesticide/fungicide - I suspect the difference between the two strains’ impact on the microbiome is less genetic and more environmental.

ADHD research is showing similar early correlation between a mothers’ diet and the rate of ADHD (particularly caffeine consumption). I have a similar belief here that ADHD correlates with caffeine consumption because caffeine is often consumed in liquids containing additives that disrupt the mother’s microbiome.

I strongly suspect that, over the next 100 years, we are going to find that we’ve been waging war on the human biome through food preservatives and environmental contaminants. And that many common chronic disorders/illnesses (including ADHD, Autism, weight gain, etc) in our generation are actually attributable to a disfunctioning microbiome.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#82

Post by john01dav » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

shutupnerd0000 wrote: post #72

john01dav wrote: post #57

Pathologizing autistic behaviors is not the right approach here. Most autistic behaviors are harmless except insofar as allistic (non-autistic) people provide unnecessary consequences for it and through incompatibilities. We don't say that a Linux workstation in a network of Windows computers is broken or needs to be fixed (or visa-versa), but rather we recognize that the problems are due to the differences. As such,…

> In my opinion, though, in many cases this is not autism but rather autism with an accompanying intellectual disability That's just like, your opinion, man. If autism warrants needing help with daily living then it's a disorder by definition.

There are two ways that something can lead to needing help with daily living:

- society rejects the trait without good reason, so then someone needs help to deal with this rejection

- the trait leads to an inability to do something that the person wants to do, irrespective of any societal concerns

I am okay with calling the latter a disorder, but not the former. The traits that are recognized as part of autism (social incompatibilities, stimming, special interests, hyper or hyposensitivity — these are the DSM traits for autism rephrased more politely) are clearly in the former case. Traits that lead to being unable to function (such as an inability to feed one's self) are not on this list, but rather are characterized by intellectual disability.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#83

Post by quodestabsurdum » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #75

RobotToaster wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gut issues are a common comorbidity with autism, it could just be he had some kind of gluten sensitivity and treating it allowed more energy to compensate for autism.

When “comorbidity” is used in this context, are we actually referring to people dying because of it? Or does it just mean “are found together when discussing this disease?”

Comorbidity is a commonly used term to denote that a condition occurs with another condition. In this case you can think of it more like "co-occurs".

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#84

Post by john01dav » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:21 PM UTC

jprete wrote: post #74

john01dav wrote: post #57

Pathologizing autistic behaviors is not the right approach here. Most autistic behaviors are harmless except insofar as allistic (non-autistic) people provide unnecessary consequences for it and through incompatibilities. We don't say that a Linux workstation in a network of Windows computers is broken or needs to be fixed (or visa-versa), but rather we recognize that the problems are due to the differences. As such,…

I think you're engaging in the no-true-Scotsman fallacy with the claim that highly autistic people with a lot of special needs are really "autistic with intellectual disabilities". I disagree. They're simply more autistic and more impacted than either of us.

See here for why I think that it is different: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40329752

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#85

Post by RobotToaster » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:22 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #75

RobotToaster wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gut issues are a common comorbidity with autism, it could just be he had some kind of gluten sensitivity and treating it allowed more energy to compensate for autism.

When “comorbidity” is used in this context, are we actually referring to people dying because of it? Or does it just mean “are found together when discussing this disease?”

> Or does it just mean “are found together when discussing this disease?”

this.

"morbid" is from the Latin root "morbus", meaning sickness.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#86

Post by Scarblac » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:22 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #69

2four2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autistic as an identity and autism as a disease are different things that are difficult to uncouple. Similarly to obesity, it's difficult to talk about the health aspect without people being sensitive about the identity aspect. I find it's useful when reading about research to empathize with the authors and realize their work is an attempt to be constructive instead of providing social commentary.

I'm being productive by pushing back and saying that when people say that autism needs to be cured and prevented, that they shouldn't say that, because autism doesn't need to be cured and prevented. It's not a disease, but in this society it is a disability, and there's a stigma and lack of understanding around autism in general. What we can do today to make life better for autistic people everywhere is to spread awa…

This is about people diagnosed before the age of 5, they're almost all cases of severe autism. That's very different from the kind of autism you're talking about.

People who are permanently unable to live independently have a condition that should be prevented if possible.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#87

Post by ModernMech » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:24 PM UTC

shipman05 wrote: post #68

ModernMech wrote: post #28

"Prevention strategies" As an autistic person, no thanks. Let people be autistic.

I understand the sentiment, but there's a reason it's called the autism spectrum. I work with several software engineers with autism who are as capable as their peers. Sure they may have behavioral quirks, but not significantly more so than the normal variation in human behavior. Their brains don't seem to work in an inferior or problematic way, just different. On the other hand, I have a close relative with more sev…

Indeed, my ex wife was incapable of living on her own or holding a job. I have a whole social circle of autistic friends of different abilities. Some still live with their parents. Men in their 40s living with their parents. Women who left home for the first time at 30 only to have to move back within months. My one friend is a sex worker because she can't hold down a real job. She sells her meds and her body to get by.

I lived with my parents last year, at 36, but I moved out and got a 1 bedroom. It was touch and go for a while, I still can't cook for myself, but at least I can take care of my cats.

I'm never going to have children. I'm never going to have a house. A family like my parents had. My sister as well, well she just got a boy friend so maybe not.

The through line problem here is not autism. Despite the range of (dis)ability, the thing that makes it a problem is how autistic needs are unmet by a society that expects us to be worker bees.

My ability to type this message and read is not a constant. There are times when I am non verbal. There are times when I cannot read because the letters are all jumbled in my head. When I'm able to read and write and speak, society values me. When I'm not, society devalues me. You want to take autism out of the equation so that I can be valuable to society.

What I'm saying is that society needs to be reoriented so that autistic people are valued whether or not they can read or write or speak.

Although I have to say I'm unsettled by you speaking for someone who can't speak, and deciding unilaterally that "curing" them would be a massive quality of life improvement for "all involved". Did you ask them?

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#88

Post by anon84873628 » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:27 PM UTC

john01dav wrote: post #78

anon84873628 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between "neurodiverse" people and severely autistic people facing huge challenges in their life. Are you seriously dismissing the idea of helping treat that latter group? " this is not autism but rather autism with an accompanying intellectual disability and the intellectual disability is the reason for higher supports needs. " This is a self-contradictory statement. But what do you think pe…

> There is a big difference between "neurodiverse" people and severely autistic people facing huge challenges in their life. Are you seriously dismissing the idea of helping treat that latter group? The people who you are referring to as neurodiverse also face huge challenges. When everyone hates you just for being yourself and not hurting anyone, that is a huge challenge. This can threaten peoples ability to make a…

Thanks for you comment. I was only splitting the spectrum into the two broadest categories for rhetorical simplicity.

Of course I also agree that society needs to become more accepting and supportive of all types of people. To put it simply, we should not become a bioengineered dystopia. We can do two things at once though.

>I think that this type of research is unnecessarily lumping intellectual disabilities with the traits in what you call neurodiverse people.

This is an unfair and unsubstantiated view that you are projecting onto the researchers. I give benefit of the doubt that these professionals have a far better understanding of the science, sociology, and ethics of the topic than any of us. We need better understanding and improvement in all the areas right now.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#89

Post by dukeyukey » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:28 PM UTC

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #46

2four2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autistic as an identity and autism as a disease are different things that are difficult to uncouple. Similarly to obesity, it's difficult to talk about the health aspect without people being sensitive about the identity aspect. I find it's useful when reading about research to empathize with the authors and realize their work is an attempt to be constructive instead of providing social commentary.

Autism is not a disease. It's a diverging feature.

How do you square that with the severe cases of autism? The people who will never be able to live independently?

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#90

Post by somenameforme » Sat, May 11, 2024, 6:28 PM UTC

shipman05 wrote: post #68

ModernMech wrote: post #28

"Prevention strategies" As an autistic person, no thanks. Let people be autistic.

I understand the sentiment, but there's a reason it's called the autism spectrum. I work with several software engineers with autism who are as capable as their peers. Sure they may have behavioral quirks, but not significantly more so than the normal variation in human behavior. Their brains don't seem to work in an inferior or problematic way, just different. On the other hand, I have a close relative with more sev…

Then people should stop conflating the two. This whole "spectrum" nonsense is nonsense. Your coworkers are not autistic - they are weird or whatever other more PC term you might want to use, and that's great - many, if not most, great engineers are!. There is no need to pathologize differences in people. Your relative, by contrast, is. If you have a habit of feeling sleepy at work, it's not like we say you're on the narcolepsy spectrum. It's just a completely dumb concept.

People like your relative, or the kid who sits around flapping his hand and starts freaking out if anybody interacts with him - those people are obviously not just 'weird'. They clearly have severe mental disorders, and if we want to call whatever it is that they have autism - fine. But if we do, then we need to stop calling people like your coworkers, Bill Gates, or whoever else also autistic.