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Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

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Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#71

Post by munchler »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #46
2four2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autistic as an identity and autism as a disease are different things that are difficult to uncouple. Similarly to obesity, it's difficult to talk about the health aspect without people being sensitive about the identity aspect. I find it's useful when reading about research to empathize with the authors and realize their work is an attempt to be constructive instead of providing social commentary.

Autism is not a disease. It's a diverging feature.

Some people are severely disabled by autism. Are you suggesting that we should just let them suffer?

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#72

Post by shutupnerd0000 »

john01dav wrote: post #57

Pathologizing autistic behaviors is not the right approach here. Most autistic behaviors are harmless except insofar as allistic (non-autistic) people provide unnecessary consequences for it and through incompatibilities. We don't say that a Linux workstation in a network of Windows computers is broken or needs to be fixed (or visa-versa), but rather we recognize that the problems are due to the differences. As such,…

> In my opinion, though, in many cases this is not autism but rather autism with an accompanying intellectual disability

That's just like, your opinion, man.

If autism warrants needing help with daily living then it's a disorder by definition.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#73

Post by zer00eyz »

ants_everywhere wrote: post #48
faeriechangling wrote: post #2

> The researchers discovered that a small number of biochemical pathways are responsible for the majority of these changes, which could help inform new early detection and prevention strategies for autism. It won’t. Autism is a socioculturally bound diagnosis, not a single disease that exists in biology. It’s a label for those perceived by others in a certain light, defined in such a way that two with the same label…

> Autism is a socioculturally bound diagnosis This is untrue and unsupported by evidence > It's a label for those perceived by others in a certain light This is untrue and unsupported by evidence > defined in such a way that two with the same label can have remarkably little overlap in terms of observed behaviour This is untrue and unsupported by evidence > You diagnose autism based on how people act, not who they ar…

>> defined in such a way that two with the same label can have remarkably little overlap in terms of observed behaviour

> This is untrue and unsupported by evidence

Here is the diagnostic criteria for ASD: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html ... It literally lays out a path that can generate a non overlapping diagnosis. It sort of has to because we lummped what were previously two disorders together because people are sensitive to nazi's having existed.

Now go to the UK where there is strong advocacy for a whole other set of diagnostic criteria for women. The DSM begins to look barbaric and/or sexist if not misinformed.

The moment there is a biological underpinning to something like ASD it gets interesting because what do you do with all the folks with a diagnosis who DONT fit that label. They have something that looks the same but isnt... and the whole psychiatry/psychology community looks like quacks. DO note that im not opposed to these fields but they need to get their shit together on reproducibility.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#74

Post by jprete »

john01dav wrote: post #57

Pathologizing autistic behaviors is not the right approach here. Most autistic behaviors are harmless except insofar as allistic (non-autistic) people provide unnecessary consequences for it and through incompatibilities. We don't say that a Linux workstation in a network of Windows computers is broken or needs to be fixed (or visa-versa), but rather we recognize that the problems are due to the differences. As such,…

I think you're engaging in the no-true-Scotsman fallacy with the claim that highly autistic people with a lot of special needs are really "autistic with intellectual disabilities". I disagree. They're simply more autistic and more impacted than either of us.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#75

Post by Waterluvian »

RobotToaster wrote: post #35
Der_Einzige wrote: post #11

I know of at least one book written by and for autistic people who advocates for a gluten free diet. They claim in the book that this significantly reduces their symptoms. I don’t know if I believe it or not, but the notion of gut-brain axis seems to imply that a good diet should help a bit, right?

Gut issues are a common comorbidity with autism, it could just be he had some kind of gluten sensitivity and treating it allowed more energy to compensate for autism.

When “comorbidity” is used in this context, are we actually referring to people dying because of it? Or does it just mean “are found together when discussing this disease?”

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#76

Post by anon84873628 »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #46
2four2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autistic as an identity and autism as a disease are different things that are difficult to uncouple. Similarly to obesity, it's difficult to talk about the health aspect without people being sensitive about the identity aspect. I find it's useful when reading about research to empathize with the authors and realize their work is an attempt to be constructive instead of providing social commentary.

Autism is not a disease. It's a diverging feature.

Saying this doesn't make you hip, woke, or cool.

Autism is clearly a "spectrum" disorder that is not fully understood or categorized yet, which is exactly why we need this type of research to reach a conclusive, testable biological basis.

To portray severely afflicted people as simply "neurodiverse" and dismiss treatment options for them, is far more bigoted than the reverse.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#77

Post by StressedDev »

faeriechangling wrote: post #58
m00x wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's completely incorrect. Autism has clear physiological differences in the brain. It's not just a personality difference. People like to call themselves autistic when it's just social awkwardness, and some doctors might even improperly diagnose them, but these are separate from the condition. https://www.healthcentral.com/condition/autism/autism-brain-... This could help us prevent autism completely.

>People like to call themselves autistic when it's just social awkwardness, and some doctors might even improperly diagnose them, but these are separate from the condition. What makes such a diagnosis incorrect when various forms of social awkwardness satisfy criteria A and D of the diagnostic criteria [1], and all of the criteria for social pragmatic disorder[2]? In the DSM-V-TR era psychiatrists are instructed to n…

You cannot self-diagnose, and only a trained medical professional can diagnose autism. By trained medical professional, I mean an autism expert who is either a therapist (PHD, PsyD, LMFT, etc.) or a psychiatrist.

Most people who use terms like autistic, bi-polar, sociopath, narcist, etc. are using the terms incorrectly.

Also, I suspect you are correct that most ASD diagnoses do not use brain scans and rely on a trained professional's judgement and observations. That fact does not mean that autism does not exist or that some autistic people may have physical differences from neurotypical people.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#78

Post by john01dav »

anon84873628 wrote: post #67
john01dav wrote: post #57

Pathologizing autistic behaviors is not the right approach here. Most autistic behaviors are harmless except insofar as allistic (non-autistic) people provide unnecessary consequences for it and through incompatibilities. We don't say that a Linux workstation in a network of Windows computers is broken or needs to be fixed (or visa-versa), but rather we recognize that the problems are due to the differences. As such,…

There is a big difference between "neurodiverse" people and severely autistic people facing huge challenges in their life. Are you seriously dismissing the idea of helping treat that latter group? " this is not autism but rather autism with an accompanying intellectual disability and the intellectual disability is the reason for higher supports needs. " This is a self-contradictory statement. But what do you think pe…

> There is a big difference between "neurodiverse" people and severely autistic people facing huge challenges in their life. Are you seriously dismissing the idea of helping treat that latter group?

The people who you are referring to as neurodiverse also face huge challenges. When everyone hates you just for being yourself and not hurting anyone, that is a huge challenge. This can threaten peoples ability to make a living. This can result in people having to live in abusive situations due to lack of financial — not practical — ability to live on their own. When you need to do stimming to feel internally at piece but most other people will perceive this as a threat, that is a challenge. When you need protection (e.g., headphones) from sensory input in the outside world, but the world does not allow this in some cases (for example a job may deem it to be "unprofessional") that is also a threat. Supports are needed in this case, and these supports are for the world to lighten up about allowing these things.

Also, there are, perhaps more challenging, problems that what you call "severely autistic" people face. We should also support these people. For these people, the supports could be similar as above (the world lightening up, perhaps about the requirement that everyone be productively employed) or they could be different (a medical treatment that increases intelligence). Such a medical treatment needs to be performed ONLY with the informed consent of the patient, to the degree that that is possible with the communication difficulties.

> This is a self-contradictory statement. But what do you think people are researching if not those intellectual disabilities -- why they occur and how they can be prevented.

I think that this type of research is unnecessarily lumping intellectual disabilities with the traits in what you call neurodiverse people. I am much more open to helping people with intellectual disabilities, to the extent that these people want that help, than I am to treatments that attempt to normalize neurodiverse people. The word "autism" refers to both groups, so research that is about "curing autism" is at least in part about normalizing neurodiverse people.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#79

Post by anon84873628 »

ModernMech wrote: post #69
2four2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autistic as an identity and autism as a disease are different things that are difficult to uncouple. Similarly to obesity, it's difficult to talk about the health aspect without people being sensitive about the identity aspect. I find it's useful when reading about research to empathize with the authors and realize their work is an attempt to be constructive instead of providing social commentary.

I'm being productive by pushing back and saying that when people say that autism needs to be cured and prevented, that they shouldn't say that, because autism doesn't need to be cured and prevented. It's not a disease, but in this society it is a disability, and there's a stigma and lack of understanding around autism in general. What we can do today to make life better for autistic people everywhere is to spread awa…

Of course society should become more accepting and accommodating of differently-abled people of all types. But can you really look at the extreme end of the Autism spectrum and say that isn't a disease or disorder?

One reason we need this fundamental research is to disentangle the different types of afflictions and give them different names.

Re: Metabolism of autism reveals developmental origins

#80

Post by ants_everywhere »

zer00eyz wrote: post #73
ants_everywhere wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autism is a socioculturally bound diagnosis This is untrue and unsupported by evidence > It's a label for those perceived by others in a certain light This is untrue and unsupported by evidence > defined in such a way that two with the same label can have remarkably little overlap in terms of observed behaviour This is untrue and unsupported by evidence > You diagnose autism based on how people act, not who they ar…

>> defined in such a way that two with the same label can have remarkably little overlap in terms of observed behaviour > This is untrue and unsupported by evidence Here is the diagnostic criteria for ASD: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/hcp-dsm.html ... It literally lays out a path that can generate a non overlapping diagnosis. It sort of has to because we lummped what were previously two disorders together becaus…

Thanks I'm thoroughly familiar with the DSM criteria, the ICD criteria, and the research literature.

> It literally lays out a path that can generate a non overlapping diagnosis.

It does not. If you believe there are exist two autistic people who have no overlapping symptoms please present an example.

> The moment there is a biological underpinning to something like ASD it gets interesting because what do you do with all the folks with a diagnosis who DONT fit that label.

Compare this to, "The moment there is a biological underpinning to something like cancer it gets interesting because what do you do with all the folks with a diagnosis who DONT fit that label." To which the answer is "that's a red herring, the current understanding of cancer doesn't require all cancers share the same biological origins, so why should finding one marker call that into question?"

Or "The moment you locate the code line with a buffer overflow it gets interesting because some programs that seem like they have a buffer overflow don't have that line of code."

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