Live data from Hacker News

KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

fosstodon.org

221–230 of 367 posts

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#221
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The role of a maintainer is more than copying and pasting upstream. They are allowed to exercise their judgement in what they believe is appropriate for end users of a distribution. In this case, there does seem to be reasonable security justifications for it, and an alternative is provided.

If both upstream and a significant portion of users strongly disagree with a maintainer's judgement, then how is their role as maintainer justified? It's KeePassXC's job to secure the software and produce features that fulfill users' needs as they see fit. Julian's role as maintainer may intersect with that to a limited extent , in deciding on what kind of defaults best fit the rest of the OS. But, in this case, the…

> KeePassXC's job

Is KeepassXC even a company ? looking at their site and wikipedia, they're just a bunch of people dedicated enough to maintain the project. Looking at the donation page [0] they don't even list anything going to themselves in the use of the money.

So they're effectively paying with their time to keep the thing alive. If anything the community seem to own a ton to these guys.

[0] https://keepassxc.org/donate/

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#222
post #84

I like this solution. He reduced the attack vectors in the base application by removing features a large majority of people don't use. And if they want these additional features then download the full version.

> features a large majority of people don't use. I would be shocked if this was true. I have recommended KeepassXC to many of my friends and family and they all use at least one of the features that was in the removed list. To be fair, none of them use debian, but some of them do use other Linux distros. I don't use debian on desktop anymore on my main machine, but I did use BunsenLabs for a long time and even back t…

I never knew KeepPassXC could talk with my browser or interact with ssh until I saw this thread, and I've been using it for almost 10 years now.

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, why do maintainers owe us anything? They’re typically unpaid or poorly paid and are doing everyone a favour. The code is open source and anyone who doesn’t like their work can easily fork the project. They don’t need to justify anything to us

I anticipated this reply, either here or elsewhere, and was really hoping it wouldn't arrive. I do a lot of volunteer work too. Guess what? My decisions in those roles are not unimpeachable. Being a volunteer also does not mean you are owed anything, even gratitude. It's a thing you choose to do, and if you don't like doing it anymore, then you should stop doing it. Package maintainers aren't self-sacrificial saints…

I agree volunteering doesn't mean decisions can't be criticized, but the notion of duty towards the user oversteps that.

The same way maintainers make their decisions, the community is free to deal with it in any way shape or form. As long as money or malice or recklessness isn't involved, people should be free to do what they think is right, and the current maintainers aren't putting any roadblocks to prevent others from using the work in the way they want.

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#224
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Connecting the internet and a password database together is one of those fundamentally bad ideas. This might well be an excellent technical decision. Although I agree with the thread root that this is a level of intervention that might justify some rebranding. > Package maintainers aren't self-sacrificial saints or all that unique as volunteers go. If you want keepassx, you can go install it. If you want the Debian a…

>And some reasonable expectations of respect. Volunteers by definition do not (or at least should not) expect anything in return for their time. If you want respect as a so-called volunteer, you're not a volunteer. I've seen both good and bad package maintainers, too.

> Volunteers by definition do not (or at least should not) expect anything in return for their time

That isn't really true. For starters, paid volunteers are actually a thing that happens from time to time. Secondly; there would be no volunteers if they didn't get something for their time. It is just generally that something isn't money. Volunteers aren't expected to be selfless.

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#225
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm afraid that's not going to happen. It was a mistake to ship with all plugins built by default. This will be painful for a year as users annoyingly do not read the NEWS files they should be reading but there's little that can be done about that. I deal with enough packages in my life that do massively breaking changes in point releases though, to be honest. This is reminding me of the good days that `apt upgrade…

You don't have to proactively read it. But when you notice your keepassxc doesn't work as it used to before, that should be a trigger for you to go back and read it, note that it tells you very clearly that the functionality you're missing is now in keepassxc-full, apt-install it, and go on with your life.

One doesn't expect such a drastic ... 'fix' in a point release though.

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#227

IMHO is a downstream maintainer is going to change a package in a way that doesn't have the intent of the upstream project, it should be published under a different name and that maintainer deal with all bug reports caused by their modified version.

Either that or it should indicate to the end user that it's an unsupported package. Maybe showing up as KeePassXC-Debian or KeePassXC-Unsupported and have the developer's contact details (website etc) removed from About and replaced with the Debian details for support. A downstream maintainer making small changes to fit within the OS that doesn't meaningfully affect the app is fine. A downstream maintainer modifying…

[deleted]

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#228
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I anticipated this reply, either here or elsewhere, and was really hoping it wouldn't arrive. I do a lot of volunteer work too. Guess what? My decisions in those roles are not unimpeachable. Being a volunteer also does not mean you are owed anything, even gratitude. It's a thing you choose to do, and if you don't like doing it anymore, then you should stop doing it. Package maintainers aren't self-sacrificial saints…

Connecting the internet and a password database together is one of those fundamentally bad ideas. This might well be an excellent technical decision. Although I agree with the thread root that this is a level of intervention that might justify some rebranding. > Package maintainers aren't self-sacrificial saints or all that unique as volunteers go. If you want keepassx, you can go install it. If you want the Debian a…

> Connecting the internet and a password database together is one of those fundamentally bad ideas.

Disagree. I use KeePassXC because I would prefer to have my passwords on my computer, instead of somebody else's computer (and I am willing to accept responsibility for managing my own password file).

That is a delineation that is parallel to, but not the same as, "don't connect to the internet". Browser integration is a required feature for a modern password manager; without it, you don't have a password manager, you have an encrypted notepad. HIBP integration is, likewise, net-good for users.

Also, as the KeePassXC devs have repeatedly pointed out in multiple places, these features are compiled in, but not enabled by default. Users who do not wish to use them can simply ignore them. Julian's argument at best seems to be some kind of concern about software supply chain; he is compiling the package without these features so that they are no longer available to the users who do want them.

The people making the arguments in favor of this change "for security reasons" aren't even making strong arguments for it.

> If you want keepassx, you can go install it...

Okay. And if you want a super-paranoid version of KeePassXC without these features compiled in, you can... go compile it that way.

Like everyone else, I already have thousands of little time sinks to contend with simultaneous to other increasing pressures in life. I am investing some time now to try to prevent another bad decision from adding to those faffs.

> some reasonable expectations of respect.

First, from my reading here and on the Mastodon thread and on the GitHub thread, most people have expressed dissatisfaction with this decision without crossing the line into disrespect towards the maintainer. The KeePassXC devs have maybe gotten a little heated, but they deserve all the same allowances you'd give to a package maintainer. They are getting bug reports due to downstream's decision, which they strongly disagree with. That sucks. There is a little bit of the usual internet noise, but otherwise, this is about the best discourse that could be expected for something like this.

Second, Julian himself kinda invited a strong negative response when he replied early on with, "This will be painful for a year as users annoyingly do not read the NEWS files they should be reading but there's little that can be done about that. ... All of these features are superfluous and do not really belong in a local password database manager, these developments are all utterly misguided. Users who need this crap can install the crappy version..."

---

Getting back to some substantive discussion, it seems unlikely Julian is going to change his mind on this. This seems like a clear failure of package stewardship to me; KeePassXC's best move IMO is to set up their own repository and provide instructions for adding their repo and key to apt and then pin their keepassxc package. It's a bit of a nuisance for them, but probably less headache than ongoing bug reports and noise from the internet. There's already a lot of other software that gets installed this way, so I think it's fair to expect the average Debian user to be able to handle this process -- it's copy-and-pasting about four lines into your terminal. Then, Julian will no longer need to bear the burden of maintaining the package.

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#229

Gutting the functionality that upstream has built into a piece of software and then publishing it under the same name is dubious at best. If they want to go this direction they should publish as a fork under a different name so upstream doesn't get constantly barraged by complaints of users having issues. This reminds me of the time years ago when the Debian maintainer of Chromium decided to unilaterally disable the…

IF apple said "hey we edited your app because we think its more secure"... People would have torches and pitchforks out. But a deb maintainer does it and there is debate? If there was a security issue then the insecure version should NOT be available. But again this is not the case. In an App Store world, the role of mainainter has to change. The job is to make the software work with the distro, not keep the name and…

I've visited the App Store world, and my experience was that, weighted by how often packages appear in search results, the median is charitably described as "potentially unwanted", and honestly described as malware.

Re: KeePassXC Debian maintainer has removed all network features

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and autotype I would go crazy w/o autotype. The way the IT dorks were forced by management to set up 'SSO' via an external provider at work, you have to enter the same information at least 3 times a day. 'SSO' for management means 'sign into each of our tools each single day'. Muh, no work done equals better security!

Usually SSO means that you have to login just once to access all of your accounts. If it requires you to login multiple times a day then something is not configured correctly.

Well... at my current employer, we have 3 "SSO" providers.

By that, I mean three different Okta logins, and logging in to any of them will log you out of the other two. If I want to do anything, it means I need to log in again because it is unlikely that I am logged in to the right account.

Yes, I need all 3 multiple times daily. There is no logic about which one I need for which system.

IT knows this is not how it is supposed to be, but they assure us that this is a temporary situation. I guess 1.5 Years is still temporary.

Post reply on HN